new scoutmaster Question

[Dmward]

One also has to accept the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty.  There seems to be a lot of conclusion jumping on limited information. 

No conclusion jumping here, facts only..... and if he is/was found guilty in a court then the issue becomes a council issue and the scout will be banned from scouting. at the troop level we can only remove him from our troop and he can still join another troop

[Dmward]

Its worth asking the scout, in a non-judgmental way, why he has repeatedly chosen to use illegal drugs.  Not because he may have a good excuse (I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason that would excuse a youth making this choice) - but because it may reveal deeper, more important issues that might need to be addressed.  A teenager using pot recreationally with friends is a different situation from crude attempts at self medication for depression or other mental illness.  It's most likely to be the former - but as an advocate for these youth, its at least worth having the discussion.  Approaching it from a standpoint of true concern and free of judgement is also a good way to build trust and rapport with the young man.

I did leave a lot of facts out of my original post. it was Pot, We did sit with him the first time, excuse then was " I was holding it for someone"  He was disciplined for the first offence. the boy also has 8 months until his 18 birthday

[jwest09]

What's his level of motivation in attempting to earn Eagle?

 

I agree completely that his behavior is not compatible with becoming an Eagle Scout.  I wonder if he actually cares?

[qwazse]

... The first offense we worked with him and he was disciplined, 40 hours community service for the church we meet at. this is his second offence.....  

Community service does not do much to fix these problems. In fact, I've known quite a few "druggies" (as some have called them), who joyfully volunteer for this stuff.

 

Now if in the process of that service, someone gets paired up with a mentor (e.g. a NA sponsor) who will be on that person like white on rice, and there is a 360 evaluation of home, social relationships, work. and school environments over an extended period of time ... then that changes the landscape.

 

I did leave a lot of facts out of my original post. it was Pot, We did sit with him the first time, excuse then was " I was holding it for someone"  He was disciplined for the first offence. the boy also has 8 months until his 18 birthday

So, the boy did not give up his "someone".

I've had scouts with discipline issues and they often pointed to doing something "for their friends".

To which my reply is "You either lead your friends, or follow them. One will help you soar, the other will drag you down."

 

In a sense, the boy is failing to show leadership in his project, because he's choosing to be led by others. Thus, from an Eagle scout's perspective, this isn't about drug possession. This is about "giving up command of one's vessel" (a lesson learned from Seabase's Captain Steve). He needs to fend off the mutineers whom he's called friends or associates, hire a loyal crew, commit to them, set new coarse, and catch a wholesome wind.

 

Some back-slidden 17.5 year-olds can take back command of their own vessel in time to rightly be awarded Eagle. Many will find themselves unworthy. There is no way to tell which you scout is from this side of the internet, but I can say this: being found unworthy is sometimes the best gift a fellow can get.

[Dmward]

So the drug user gets empathy. The Eagle candidate who may have lacked leadership gets crucified? I swear.

Im not looking to crucify or give empathy... Im all about doing the right thing for troop.  few fasts, the boy will be 18 in 8 months. second time getting caught with pot in school while being a scout... he was mentored and disciplined for the first time. My committee majority are educational executives within the school district and know the facts. they cant disclose one word but do have the vote that I don't have.all I can do is make a recommendation. so im struggling with, can I stand in front of the community and swear this boy deserves to be eagle.....   is that a slap in the face to all eaglescouts? will scout parents disagree and pull their boys out....who looses if that happens....  the boy repeated the same illegal behavior twice.... in school....  im getting calls from concerened parents who hear rumors now and are concerned for their boys..... im just listening to their concerns and my comment is the same to all parents calling me. " I will not entertaining any rumors, especially rumors about a minor child. The troop will investigate these allegations and take appropriate action if necessary" and I leave it at that. 

[Dmward]

Despite the circumstances, welcome to the forum.

 

What help is your scout receiving? Help your scout first!

I do not know what help outside of scouts he is getting, the parents were very hostile during the first offense and we had to ban the father from scout activates. I do not hold or judge any scout based on parents behaviors. He was mentored and disciplined by the scoutmaster for the first offence. he repeated the exact same offence, "caught with pot at school"... he will be 18 in 8 months. I also have 36 other scouts to worry about as well. an eagle scout is a elite group of the finest examples of a scout..... is he one of the finest examples???  does he deserve to be part of this elite group .  The foremost responsibility of an Eagle Scout is to live with HONOR

[Dmward]

What's his level of motivation in attempting to earn Eagle?

 

I agree completely that his behavior is not compatible with becoming an Eagle Scout.  I wonder if he actually cares?

 I wonder the same, his father and brother are eagle scouts and the father seems to be driving him.

[Col. Flagg]

@@Dmward, I think the risk to your troop, program and other Scouts is too great to allow this Scout to go forward in your troop. He simply has not lived up to the Oath and Law. As an SM I would not sign off on that requirement alone. It sounds like the word is out and the troop committee needs to take action, so signing off on the Eagle requirements is the least of your worries. If this were my unit:

• We would contact district and council, apprise them of the situation and ask them for advice on how to handle. We would let them know we were considering suspending or expelling the Scout from the unit.
• After talking to district/council, we'd have a meeting of the troop committee, including the Scoutmasters.
• The group would come to an agreement on what actions we are going to take. We'd likely suspend him from our troop for a period of 6-8 months, thus essentially ending his role in our unit. 
• This would be communicated to the Scout in question and his parents. We would provide him with a copy of his records and wish him well. We would then have a parent's meeting to discuss the action we took.

After that, we'd move on. Something similar happened many, many years back. This is how we handled it and it seemed to work well then.

 

I wish you luck.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Dmward]

Community service does not do much to fix these problems. In fact, I've known quite a few "druggies" (as some have called them), who joyfully volunteer for this stuff.

 

Now if in the process of that service, someone gets paired up with a mentor (e.g. a NA sponsor) who will be on that person like white on rice, and there is a 360 evaluation of home, social relationships, work. and school environments over an extended period of time ... then that changes the landscape.

 

So, the boy did not give up his "someone".

I've had scouts with discipline issues and they often pointed to doing something "for their friends".

To which my reply is "You either lead your friends, or follow them. One will help you soar, the other will drag you down."

 

In a sense, the boy is failing to show leadership in his project, because he's choosing to be led by others. Thus, from an Eagle scout's perspective, this isn't about drug possession. This is about "giving up command of one's vessel" (a lesson learned from Seabase's Captain Steve). He needs to fend off the mutineers whom he's called friends or associates, hire a loyal crew, commit to them, set new coarse, and catch a wholesome wind.

 

Some back-slidden 17.5 year-olds can take back command of their own vessel in time to rightly be awarded Eagle. Many will find themselves unworthy. There is no way to tell which you scout is from this side of the internet, but I can say this: being found unworthy is sometimes the best gift a fellow can get.

Thankyou

[Dmward]

Bottom line is, the Scout does not get an Eagle Board of Review without your endorsement.  You as Unit Leader have to sign your name on the Eagle Application, as does the Unit Committee Chair. Unless he appeals to Council, that is.  I would go with my gut.  I would be sympathetic and try to get him help and support.  But Eagle Scout is now off the radar.  He had a chance to repent and go down a different path.  He chose not to.  His choice, not yours.  If you relent and turn a blind eye, you are making a mockery of the Eagle Award and everyone, down to the youngest Tenderfoot, will get a clear message.

I completely agree

[fred johnson]

is that a slap in the face to all eagle scouts?

When helping a scout advance, it is wrong to worry about 

• a slap in the face to all eagle scouts ?
• does he deserve to be part of this elite group ?
• is he one of the finest examples ?

The keys for advancement are

• Has he fulfilled the requirements 
• "Scout spirit" ... People are not perfect.  Is he trying to live by the scout oath and law?  Being reasonable, could you let him progress for a time period and restore some trust.  

The keys here are

• Can you influence and help the scout ?
• Can he meet your reasonable expectations ?
• Do you put scouts at risk ?
• Will the scout hurt the troop or drive away scouts ?

[Dmward]

Ask yourself this question:  What requirement did the scout fail to complete?

 

2: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious (if not affiliated with an organized religion, then the parent or guardian provides this reference), educational, employer (if employed), and two other references.

 

I like to look at it his way, many of the scouts we have don't live the scout oath and law 24/7/365, and neither do us adults.  The requirement doesn't say that you must never not demonstrate scout spirt by violating a point of the scout oath and scout law.

 

6: While a Life Scout, participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

I suppose you could just refuse to do a scoutmaster conference, if you think that is the right thing to do.  I don't think I would ever deny a scout a scoutmaster conference if I were a scoutmaster.

 

 

I always turn back to what the requirements say, not what I think.  I think drug use is a terrible decision and is very destructive to one's self and the community at large.  Now, there are those that disagree with me that a little weed or a little coke never hurt anybody, and, there might be some truth to that statement, but pretty much everyone with a drug addiction problem starts with a little of this and a little of that.

 

One of these days, I will be a scoutmaster, and I hope I never have to deal with this situation.

 

The bottom line is if you don't sign it, an appeal will most likely be accepted if he has done all of the merit badges and can show some documentation on his project.

its so much more than requirements at this point. or recreational use of pot. he made a "mistake and was caught in school with weed, he was then mentored and disciplined by the scoutmaster. did he learn from that??? No, he repeated the exact same negative behavior.  the boy is 18 in 8 months. I also have 36 other scouts and parents to worry about. an eagle scout is a elite group of the finest in scouting. Can I honestly stand infront of my troop and community and say this boy is one of the finest examples of boy scouts and deserve to be part of this elite group. or by allowing this behavior am I smacking every eagle scout in the face......

[Dmward]

Ask yourself this question:  What requirement did the scout fail to complete?

 

2: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious (if not affiliated with an organized religion, then the parent or guardian provides this reference), educational, employer (if employed), and two other references.

 

I like to look at it his way, many of the scouts we have don't live the scout oath and law 24/7/365, and neither do us adults.  The requirement doesn't say that you must never not demonstrate scout spirt by violating a point of the scout oath and scout law.

 

6: While a Life Scout, participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

I suppose you could just refuse to do a scoutmaster conference, if you think that is the right thing to do.  I don't think I would ever deny a scout a scoutmaster conference if I were a scoutmaster.

 

 

I always turn back to what the requirements say, not what I think.  I think drug use is a terrible decision and is very destructive to one's self and the community at large.  Now, there are those that disagree with me that a little weed or a little coke never hurt anybody, and, there might be some truth to that statement, but pretty much everyone with a drug addiction problem starts with a little of this and a little of that.

 

One of these days, I will be a scoutmaster, and I hope I never have to deal with this situation.

 

The bottom line is if you don't sign it, an appeal will most likely be accepted if he has done all of the merit badges and can show some documentation on his project.

his eagle project is not complete, if the decision is made to remove to boy from the troop he can not complete the project. the troop owns the project and will take it over. he can move on to another troop and still get his eagle but he will be 18 in 8 months. If he is found guilty in a court of law of criminal behavior it then becomes a council issue and the boy will be banned from boyscouts 

[fred johnson]

its so much more than requirements at this point. or recreational use of pot. he made a "mistake and was caught in school with weed, he was then mentored and disciplined by the scoutmaster. did he learn from that??? No, he repeated the exact same negative behavior.  the boy is 18 in 8 months. I also have 36 other scouts and parents to worry about. an eagle scout is a elite group of the finest in scouting. Can I honestly stand infront of my troop and community and say this boy is one of the finest examples of boy scouts and deserve to be part of this elite group. or by allowing this behavior am I smacking every eagle scout in the face......

 

There is another path.  Separate him from troop activities, meetings and camp outs.  That would protect your scouts.  If he completed the requirements except scout spirit, maybe let him define a path that would satisfy "reasonable" expectations for that.  IMHO, time participating in your troop is over.  Perhaps, helping him complete his rank in these last eight months would provide a chance for life lessons.  But I do believe you need to separate him from active participation in your troop to protect everyone.

[Dmward]

One can forgive him and help him without rewarding him with an Eagle BOR. Most certainly help the kid. Just don't reward him for twice violating the law, his Oath and the many Scout Laws.

I agree, but I aslo have 36 other concerned scouts and parents to think about as well.