Adults taking more offsite breaks during summer camp?

[Eagledad]

Why go to camp to spend time OUT of camp.

.

It's my vacation, not yours.

 

Barry

[MattR]

Maybe this is a good example illustrating that different troops do different things. What else is there to say?

[Eagledad]

Maybe this is a good example illustrating that different troops do different things. What else is there to say?

well yes of course, but it's also an example of the advantages of scouters using this forum. Where else can a scouter needing ideas go for something to push their program up the next step. The best this forum has is a buffet of ideas?

 

Once in a while scouters who are ether angry at the world or believe they are the old man at the top of the mountain when it comes to scouting join the forum to set the way things should be. But they come and go as they find out some here either have more experience or bigger egos. Or both.

 

I remember being young, egotistical and a scoutmaster. I believed that not only the scouts should share my vision of the perfect scout, but the adults as well. Then something happened, over a series of experiences and some straight talk by my mentors, I turned my fixation off of me and on the scouts. Actually each scout individually. The world of scouting changed and the scouts benefited greatly from it. I grew up and now I'm here to add my part to this wonderful buffet of ideas.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[Back Pack]

It's my vacation, not yours.

Barry

So your vacation is to spend money to attend a camp you leave to play golf? Wouldn't it be MORE fun to just take a golf vacation? What message does it send to the scouts that you don't care enough to hang with them? We had adults in my troop growing up who did this. The kids did not respect them. You may THINK they do, but they don't.

[RememberSchiff]

What message does it send to the scouts that you don't care enough to hang with them?

 

It means I trust them and they had to earn that trust. Old school "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET 'EM LEAD!" - William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt

 

Disclaimer: I don't play golf.

[Eagledad]

So your vacation is to spend money to attend a camp you leave to play golf? Wouldn't it be MORE fun to just take a golf vacation? What message does it send to the scouts that you don't care enough to hang with them? We had adults in my troop growing up who did this. The kids did not respect them. You may THINK they do, but they don't.

Let me refer you back to post #28

 

"Maybe, but I prefer different strokes for different folks. Typically 95% of our scouts goto to summer camp, which includes scouts 14 and older. Camps never questioned us when we reserved a separate camp for the adults. We may not agree on the subject of adults at camp, but our scouts enjoy the way we camp."

 

Why would any troop in their right mind change a part of the program that produces a high level of success?

 

Our adults don't go to camp to specifically play golf, but neither don't we force stringent requirements on the adults during camp. They are adults after all using some of their hard earned vacation time away from the whole family. The least we can do is have an open mind to personal request. In truth most adults do stay around camp, but not because we require it. The scouts are on their own for the most part, so the adults simply aren't required.

 

As I also said, I believe summer camp is a great opportunity for scouts to practice intense patrol method scouting. Should we care what the adults are doing if their personal activities aren't effecting the scouts' experience?

 

On the disrespect comment, I'm kind of at a loss for understanding why you as a scout disrespected the adults. If you are enjoying your camp experience, and the adults don't hang around the scouts during camp activities, why would you care what they are doing? I'm not sure a single scout in our troop could even comment on the actions of one single adult during the scouts daily summer camp activities. We trust the scouts to be responsible while on their own, maybe they respect us for that trust.

 

Barry

[Col. Flagg]

No offense, Barry, but all that you say can be done without having adults leave camp to enjoy themselves. If the program is running so well, the location of the adults does not matter, EXCEPT for the appearance it gives that somehow the adults are above the rules. How many kids would love to grab a burger at DQ? Play a round? Just get away from camp for a few hours?
 
I get what some folks are saying about disrespect. If the adults allow themselves the leeway of leaving whenever they wish, rather than staying in camp and taking advantage of all the things camp has to offer, then I can see the Scouts thinking a bit less of the adults. I would.
 
Now, running needed errands, shuttling kids to approved outside events, going for work reasons, taking care of true emergency family or other issues are all good. Popping out with a few of the ASMs to hit the local BBQ joint is not what Boy Scout summer camp is about.
 

It means I trust them and they had to earn that trust. Old school "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET 'EM LEAD!" - William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt
 
Disclaimer: I don't play golf.

And that cannot be done while the adults are in camp? Please.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[RememberSchiff]

No offense, Barry, but all that you say can be done without having adults leave camp to enjoy themselves. If the program is running so well, the location of the adults does not matter, EXCEPT for the appearance it gives that somehow the adults are above the rules. How many kids would love to grab a burger at DQ? Play a round? Just get away from camp for a few hours?

 

I get what some folks are saying about disrespect. If the adults allow themselves the leeway of leaving whenever they wish, rather than staying in camp and taking advantage of all the things camp has to offer, then I can see the Scouts thinking a bit less of the adults. I would.

 

Now, running needed errands, shuttling kids to approved outside events, going for work reasons, taking care of true emergency family or other issues are all good. Popping out with a few of the ASMs to hit the local BBQ joint is not what Boy Scout summer camp is about.

 

And that cannot be done while the adults are in camp? Please.

And it can be done when the adults sign out of camp too, but then I was scout when once trained, we were trusted to patrol hike and camp without adults.  A privilege earned.

[MattR]

 The best this forum has is a buffet of ideas?

Except sometimes it starts looking like a food fight

 

A usual argument on this forum is what should adults do and that's what this thread has evolved into. And yet on the surface it's about numbers of adults and where they camp and what they do at summer camp. None of this matters if the adults are doing what they're supposed to be doing.

 

 

 I turned my fixation ... on the scouts. Actually each scout individually.

 

Yes. Different scouts and scout leaders have different abilities and maturity as well as different adults. That's why I can see different approaches, none of which are wrong. I can easily see a mob of new parents that don't get it, butting into everything and the response is sorry, too many adults and we'll only take a tenth of the number of scouts. I would like to see better training for adults (and summer camp would be a great time for this) so they could easily help the staff out, or go hike, or work remotely.

 

The reality, for me, is a bit harsher. Whereas webelos used to join in February we just had our last few scouts join two weeks ago. These guys have never camped and we have two campouts to get them comfortable being away from mom and dad. No amount of me talking to parents did any good. We were going to put them into patrols before summer camp and we may have to because the troop guides are working this summer and not going to summer camp. We may have some adults sticking around camp.

[Stosh]

One has to take into consideration there are more reasons to leave camp temporarily than to play golf. 

 

One might want to get an ice cream treat for the boys that isn't available at the trading post.

One might want to get another canister or two of gas because the boys are running out.

One might want to get off premises because the camp doesn't allow smoking on-site.

One might want to head into town to pick up something the boys forgot to plan for and need.

One might want to find an ATM to get cash so the boys who want something at the trading post and are running short of funds.

One might not have cellphone service and need to find a location to make a call for work, to call a parent, to call home to check on family.

etc.

 

Sometimes there's a fairly good reason for a scouter to leave camp TEMPORARILY for the boy's benefit as well as personal.

 

Each reason should be discussed with discretion with the SM or senior scouter on-site.

[Col. Flagg]

And it can be done when the adults sign out of camp too, but then I was scout when once trained, we were trusted to patrol hike and camp without adults.  A privilege earned.

 

So this begs the question: What do we teach the Scouts when they are expected to stay in camp and "enjoy" themselves, but adults go outside camp for reasons that are, shall we say, contrived for their own personal pleasure.

 

 

One has to take into consideration there are more reasons to leave camp temporarily than to play golf. 

 

Stosh, we don't need to list all the reasons a adult would go offsite. I think it is reasonable to assume that running errands on behalf of the boys, the troop or even the camp, are all good reasons. What would be bad reasons? For me it is when an adult leaves camp for things like golfing or to get a burger for himself or other things which demonstrated selfishness as opposed to selflessness.

[krikkitbot]

Our troop has nearly a 1:1 ratio of scouts to adults. I'd like to change that but I can't. SM insists that an adult be at each class that the scouts have. Last year I didn't go because of the high number of parents going. The year before I made sure I was in training classes that were offered by the camp.

 

This year, I am going because there was the possibility that I would be taking over the troop but that seems less and less likely. I plan on making myself as scarce as possible while at camp since I already paid and there are no refunds but given the high number of adults and all of the adult scouting that goes on. Since I believe in boy-led patrol method and the SM does not, I will probably be seen as an aloof guy who is not interested in working with the scouts.  I'd rather not be there and save my little vacation time for other stuff. 

[RememberSchiff]

So this begs the question: What do we teach the Scouts when they are expected to stay in camp and "enjoy" themselves, but adults go outside camp for reasons that are, shall we say, contrived for their own personal pleasure.

 

Odd question, if Scouts are not "enjoying" themselves, we address that problem. Some of the camp program, e.g. trek hikes, bike rides, are off reservation. If a patrol or the troop wants to take a trip off the reservation, we try to make it happen. We have done ice cream stand trips. All signed out, approved. But the fun for them is back at camp, the shingles I need for a new roof are at Home Depot.

 

Luckily, our scouts are eager to prepare and go off on their own - more adventure that way. If they want a nanny, stay home.

[Eagledad]

No offense, Barry, but all that you say can be done without having adults leave camp to enjoy themselves. If the program is running so well, the location of the adults does not matter, EXCEPT for the appearance it gives that somehow the adults are above the rules. How many kids would love to grab a burger at DQ? Play a round? Just get away from camp for a few hours?

 

You said it best, "rules". We treat adults as adults and keep and open mind to outside request. We don't apply any rules on the adults accept that they not get in the way of the scouts' patrol method experience. Does it matter if a fishing enthusiast father fishes on camp property or a well known stream nearby out of camp? What about hiker checking out a nearby off camp trail? In the bigger question, why should you care what the adult is doing on their time if they aren't required in camp? It has the appearance of control to me.

 

No offense, Barry, but all that you say can be done without having adults leave camp to enjoy themselves. If the program is running so well, the location of the adults does not matter, EXCEPT for the appearance it gives that somehow the adults are above the rules. How many kids would love to grab a burger at DQ? Play a round? Just get away from camp for a few hours?

 

Rules? Yah rules.

 

As I said, I changed and matured a lot as a scouter and a scoutmaster. Would I consider a patrol requesting an activity outside of the camp program during summer camp? You bet.

 

I didn't used to be that way, but as I stated earlier, I learned to focus on the needs of the scouts instead of the needs of my ego. If the scouts are proposing activities and ideas that promote scout growth and patrol method maturity, I will jump on it in a heartbeat. Has it happened at summer camp in my time? No, but I sure would be open to it. In fact if it's a really good idea, I would invite it as future ideas because I have seen how much those kinds of suggestions have improved our overall patrol method program.

 

If for example the whole patrol is working on a golf MB and an opportunity came up for the patrol to play around at a nearby course, yes I would consider the request. Of course there may be some limitations like only a 9 hole round to fit within the daily camp schedule. So yes, wouldn't your patrol summer camp experience be more enhanced by such an opportunity?

 

We get way to entrenched on our personal view of the scouting experience when we should focus more on what advances the goals of scouting. Trust me, I know from experience how hard it is to take our personal ego and expectations out of the equation. But as you learn to give up some of that control, you will be rewarded by a program where boys can't wait to come to do scouting stuff in your troop. Rules? Quit thinking in rules. They can bind a program.

 

Barry

Edited May 3, 2017 by Eagledad

[perdidochas]

Locally I have observed unit adults leave camp* to

   - play golf (very popular)

   - have an un-rushed, relaxed breakfast.

   - find better cellphone or laptop connectivity

   - Walmart safari

   - laundromat run

   - ice, watermelon, ice cream rum

 

In recent years, judging by the sparse parking lot, this has become more prevalent. 

 

Signed out with sufficient adult coverage remaining at camp.

 

It's their vacation, too.    Also, some of them may be required to do work online, and need the better connectivity.