I'm so tired

[mashmaster]

What if the program year started with 4-6 months of training and practice with NO advancement (no sign-off). Then the rest of year (includes summer camp) would be Advancement (test, sign-off, BOR, COH).  Service would be year round. 

 

Might ground the helicopter parents and derail the Eagle Express.

I would love that.  It sounds like a great idea.  Sadly, the program isn't setup that way.  :-(

[mashmaster]

I had 2 boys in one of my units that had a mom that kept their activity calendar for them.  She followed them around like a puppy dog and made sure the boys never had to deal with any problems.  They both Eagled, they both made OA Vigil, and just about every accolade available through the BSA. 

 

I think they are both off now about the time of finishing law school.

 

All I can say is they didn't get their Eagle on my watch.

 

I had another boy who's parents said he couldn't get his driver's license until he Eagled.  I personally put a stop to that process with a visit with his parent's over involvement with the boy's Eagle..  He Eagled in due time and even borrowed my '74 Nova for prom. 

 

Do I play favorites?  Yep, I favor the boys that want to really earn their Eagle.  With avid parents pushing the boy, I wait until the boy really wants to earn his Eagle. 

I love it, I bet the parents were not happy with you on Prom night

[mashmaster]

Mashmaster, I can relate. I'm stepping down as SM and I told my committee I will stick around but the one thing I refuse to do anymore is sign off on anything. If a scout wants to learn a skill then I'll bend over backwards to help him out (or more likely his patrol). When it comes time to getting it signed off, that's for someone else. No eagle projects, no PORs, no rank requirements. Maybe MBs.

 

After having talked to a lot of parents it's clear there's a wide range of views on advancement from "make them earn it" to "my son needs this now." I think part of the solution is to do better training up front, for the parents. Advancement is a method, it is not the aim ....

 

I wrote up the aims and methods in much more detail than what is found at BSA and I also added some details about how my troop does things and the people in my troop that have read it have said things along the lines of oh, I never knew that. They honestly did think Eagle is the only purpose and they didn't understand the point of all the campouts. I think it's Eagledad that said he spends as much time teaching the adults as the scouts. It's hard to fit it in but most parents are receptive. Not all, but maybe you can reduce some of the pain.

Can I see them?  I would love to read them.

[CA Scout Mom]

I am curious about how large some of your troops are.  Our troop is on the small side with about 20-25 Scouts in it and it's almost a given that our Scouts can become an Eagle Scout if they want that to happen.  Not all do but when you have a smaller troop, everyone has a fair chance to get all the rank requirements done because when you go on outings, there are ample opportunities.  And, there are plenty of opportunities for leadership too.  We also happen to have parents who are happy to run Merit Badges during the year (it's a very well-educated bunch) so we have 4-6 per year.  Plus, most Scouts go to summer camp at least 3-4 times during their Scouting career and they usually managed to pick up about 18-20 MBs that way.  We have a nice variety of outings including backpacks, campouts, rock climbing, kayaking, fundraising, flag ceremonies, and other community service.  I'll never forget a Dad who came up to me (his son is 2nd Class) after attending an Eagle COH for first time and asked me "Is it true that just 4-6% of Scouts make Eagle?  I thought everyone did!"  That's because more often than not, in our troop, if a Scout stays for 4-5 years, they have a fair chance of becoming one.  Most parents in our area are on board with their kids becoming Eagle--they realize the benefits so why not?  They have enough issues of being in school districts where kids routinely are getting 4.0s and above.   Anyway, the Scouts still have a great time doing the activities.  Meetings are not always their favorite thing but the PLC has been trying to get more creative.  They're having a pool party and a cook-off in May.  We have other problems like Dads not participating because they don't like camping, or because they are traveling for work to [fill in the blank:  London, NY, Australia, Chicago, San Francisco...] but I'd say overall we run a balanced program that the kids enjoy.

[Stosh]

I love it, I bet the parents were not happy with you on Prom night

 

Nope, they were ecstatic!  This was my Eagle that started out a real pain in the butt and ended up a great kid.  His dad and I are still connected on FB as well as his Eagle son.  The mom expressed a lot of gratitude because once I took over as SM and made him toe the line (his dad was the SM I replaced) he not only improved in scouts, but in school and is now in the Air Force Reserves going to college.  All of which his parents never figured he would do.  The Nova was just icing on the cake for a job well done.

[MattR]

I am curious about how large some of your troops are.  Our troop is on the small side with about 20-25 Scouts in it and it's almost a given that our Scouts can become an Eagle Scout if they want that to happen.  Not all do but when you have a smaller troop, everyone has a fair chance to get all the rank requirements done because when you go on outings, there are ample opportunities.  And, there are plenty of opportunities for leadership too.  ....

Hi @CA Scout Mom. You seem to be implying that larger troops have fewer opportunities for leadership. That certainly isn't the case in my troop and probably not most. I currently have about 45 scouts and have been as high as 70. As the troop grows the number of patrols grow and the number of PORs grow. It is more closely related to the number of patrols. There are also PORs outside of the troop, such as Den Chiefs. The 4-6% rate of Eagles is some mythical number as far as I can tell. It might include any boy that has ever been in any scout program. So the tiger cub that decided he was not interested in scouts and dropped could be part of that number. Anyway, I once made a rough guess of the percentage of scouts who filled out an app to join my troop and eventually got Eagle there and it was in the high 30s.

 

But, I think the point that Mashmaster is making is that advancement is not the sole purpose of scouting. I think a better indication of how good a troop is is the number of scouts that stick around until they're 18. That's just a metric and so please take it with a grain of salt.

[Eagle94-A1]

My cousin and I were both pushed to get Eagle. He got his at 13 and quit. I got Life at 13, and could have gotten Eagle at 14y7m, which was when I completed the project, IF I would have focused only on getting the last few MBs for Eagle.

 

But when I was 14, instead of taking MB classes at summer camp, I did a local "high adventure" backpacking trek for fun. I also did Brownsea 22, yesterday's NYLT, learning a lot and having, fun. At 15, I got into the OA, went to jamboree, did a Canadian expedition. It was all fun. Work, challenging, but FUN. At 16 and 17, I spent summers working my tail off. No time to finish up MB.

 

Then when it was announced that one of the guys I was PL for passed his EBOR and was waiting for national approval, it hit me. I have x number of months to get the last 2 or 3 MBs. I made it. Took me a while, but I made it. And I had a blast.

 

Fast forward 20+ years. My cousin has a son who become a Tiger. Thankfully he doesn't push his son to get Eagle. My cousin becomes a Scouter, and tags along on his son's adventures: OA, Philmont, etc. Stuff he should have done as a youth. And he had fun doing it.

 

My point it, to many folks focus on Eagle, and not the lessons and fun of the Trail.

[jeanvaljean]

I had 2 boys in one of my units that had a mom that kept their activity calendar for them.  She followed them around like a puppy dog and made sure the boys never had to deal with any problems.  They both Eagled, they both made OA Vigil, and just about every accolade available through the BSA. 

 

I think they are both off now about the time of finishing law school.

 

All I can say is they didn't get their Eagle on my watch.

 

I had another boy who's parents said he couldn't get his driver's license until he Eagled.  I personally put a stop to that process with a visit with his parent's over involvement with the boy's Eagle..  He Eagled in due time and even borrowed my '74 Nova for prom. 

 

Do I play favorites?  Yep, I favor the boys that want to really earn their Eagle.  With avid parents pushing the boy, I wait until the boy really wants to earn his Eagle. 

I totally agree with you, I have seen it as well, the mom who tries evey angle, manipulate every person to get her son the most decorated badges, medals etc. But I also can speak of a personal experience, when we first joined, we were told it is about the scouts and they have to do everything, which is fine since parents did a lot at cub scout, but then there was no plans, no guides to help the new scouts to do what needed to be done. I had to step in multiple times and figure out what needed to be done, and I tell you, it was confusing to me, so imagine how it was for my kids. Now after becoming first class, things are more clear for him and I just sit back and watch, most of the time I am invited to board reviews since I am present ...

 

Another story to your point, I was involved in a 100 scouts MB and I had to only help them with one requirement. There was couple of parents who would do it for their kids, and very politely I explain that the scout needs to demonstrate the task, couple of them got mad at me and went to the guy running the show, he never told me anything, but I guarantee that their blue cards were signed. Again, how is this helping the scout? not much ...

 

but yes I know exactly what you mean.

[Stosh]

It all depends on how the troop is set up.  Information/orientation to new scouts needs to be done by an adult if it is an adult led troop and the PL of the scout, or the TG if they have a NSP, if it's a boy led troop.  If the PL or TG isn't doing his job, then one heads for the SPL to find out why these scouts are in a POR and not functioning properly.  When all else fails, even in a "theoretical" boy led program, it's time to visit with the SM.  Worse case scenario, the Troop committee is responsible for the implementation of the BSA program.  By the time one gets to that place, it is obvious there's been a train wreck somewhere along the way.

[cchoat]

As a Scoutmaster, I find that parents coming out of Cub packs are confused over the differences between the two programs.  Whereas in Cubs, the boys are for the most part "passive participants" when it comes to advancement, the leaders teach and run the activities and the boys get awards and advance together, in Boy scouts, they must become "active participants" where as they move up  in the ranks based on their individual ability and interest.  You wouldn't believe that i have been told off by a small clique of parents that I wasn't "advancing their sons" fast enough to make Eagle, and thus wasn't doing my job as Scoutmaster.  Can you believe that they took offense that  I expected the older, more experienced scouts to train the younger ones in scout skills?  That I allowed the SPL and patrol leaders to have a say in what the troop is going to do each year?  And let them choose summer and winter camps?   Why, the troop down the road didn't do that.  Oh no, the adult leaders ran the meetings and did all the training.  The boys earned a merit badge a month and they all made Eagle. 

 

they didn't like my answer, and took their sons out of my troop and enrolled them in the troop down the road.  Several weeks later, reality hit, and they were gone from that troop too.. 

 

Sad thing is that I sit down with all the new parents and explain the rules of advancement to them.  One.  Not all scouts will make Eagle.  (If they did, it wouldn't be special now would it?)  Two.  Your son can earn the Eagle Rank (But he has to want to do it. It's ok to support him, but if you push him too hard you will ruin his scouting experience, and if you do it for him, the rank will mean nothing to him.)  Three.  My job as Scoutmaster is to make the opportunities available to him, to give him the opportunity to try and possibly fail in a safe environment, so that what he earns, he treasures.  Four.  I would rather your son, when he ages out of the program at 18, look back at the time he spent with us in scouting as the best time in his life than have him make Eagle.  For he has been exposed to positive traits that he will carry with him for the rest of his life.  Five.  This is how I "run' our troop. 

[Col. Flagg]

@@cchoat, you may want to add something to the introduction of your parent meeting. Many years back the SM for whom I took over for advised me to lead off with this:

 

"Boy Scouts is VERY different from Cub Scouts. In Cubs, the parents did all the work. In Boy Scouts, the boys do all the work. They keep their handbook up to date, they work with the youth Instructors to learn skills and get them signed off after they can demonstrate mastery of the skills, they keep track of their camping nights and their service hours.

 

Everything I am about to tell you has already been told to your son as part of our first year Scout program. This information is on our website. We have monthly troop committee meetings where this information can be questioned and/or discussed. Many of the new Scouts won't read, listen to or understand about 90% of what is told to them as part of this training without constant reminders. Ironically, many parents require the same.

 

If you expected Boy Scouts to be an adult-driven, adult-monitored program with the adults constantly reminding the boys about what their responsibilities are, you are in the wrong place."

 

Because we do this as part of open house BEFORE Scouts (and parents) join us, people join our unit knowing all this going in. We average 14-20 new Scouts a year, so this "disclaimer" has not hurt our recruiting one bit.  It certainly reduced attrition to under 3%.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[qwazse]

... You wouldn't believe that i have been told off by a small clique of parents that I wasn't "advancing their sons" fast enough to make Eagle, and thus wasn't doing my job as Scoutmaster.  Can you believe that they took offense that  I expected.... 

Hmm,  can I believe it? Only if it's happened to someone else.

 

Last night, the SM walked with me while we dismantled the proving course I had set up for 1st class land navigation (which both every team of his scouts and my venturers failed to complete). He wasn't bothered about that. He was rankled about the misplaced enthusiasm of cross-over parents who pushed their boys into a canned Cit. Nation MB class ASAP.

 

His troop exists partly because my troop insisted on a youth-led model with no rank-inflation. He got swarmed with the crossovers, while our troop collected just a few transfers who were more interested in cut apron-strings than collecting bling. Now, we're stuck trying to restore balance.

 

Yep. I can believe it.

[Eagle94-A1]

Yep I can believe it.  My problem was that the Crossed Over parents/Cub Leaders took over the troop, and began running the troop like Cub Scouts. As their commissioner, I tired to work with them and help them get back on course their previous SM set for the unit; SCOUT LED! Long story short, I was told I don't know what I'm talking about and that Scouting needs to change with the times.

 

If the troop can survive 1-2 more years, I see turn around. That group of parents are done with Scouts since most of their sons have Eagle and left. Only 1 or 2 remain. After 3 years of no new Scouts, they finally got a batch, as well as a Scouter who understands the program and wants it done right. There is a lot less resistance now to Scout Led.

[Sentinel947]

Yep I can believe it.  My problem was that the Crossed Over parents/Cub Leaders took over the troop, and began running the troop like Cub Scouts. As their commissioner, I tired to work with them and help them get back on course their previous SM set for the unit; SCOUT LED! Long story short, I was told I don't know what I'm talking about and that Scouting needs to change with the times.

Its like having a soccer/football(for our european friends) team where you let all your players use their hands and then tell the ref, "The game just needs to get with the times!"

[Back Pack]

Its like having a soccer/football(for our european friends) team where you let all your players use their hands and then tell the ref, "The game just needs to get with the times!"

That's how Rugby was discovered. Just sayin'.