Philmont question - Arrival target time each day?

[qwazse]

It has changed a great deal since then. More rules, more process, more time-wasting.

Hate to say it, but that's why PSR never made it up to the top of my list.

On the other hand, now that the National Scouting Museum relocated there ....

[Col. Flagg]

Hate to say it, but that's why PSR never made it up to the top of my list.

On the other hand, now that the National Scouting Museum relocated there ....

 

They have to be more organized now. You have 20,000+ people each year there. Each crew is maxed at 12. With all the trash and stuff, you have to make sure everyone is well-trained. If everyone were as well-trained and considerate as they SHOULD BE, they wouldn't have to spend so much time on training crews.

 

As it was they put down three bears (I even heard a fourth was killed) last year, all due to bad crews. One, near Cimmaroncito, had to be put down because a crew (late for their program) simply left their packs and food in their camp site (not secure or in bear bags). That bear paid with its life. The crew was banned for a long time from Philmont.

[TAHAWK]

Much good advice.

 

In a feeble effort to contribute

 

"Lunch" for breakfast

"Breakfast" for lunch.

On the trail when light enough to walk safely.

Lots of practice before expedition with loads eventually heavier than you expect at Philmont.

Really suitable footwear for rocky trails

Dressed like cowboys except for the backpacking boots.

[desertrat77]

I can identify with NJCubScouter's comments...my sole trek was 40 years ago this summer.

 

Visited base camp last summer.   It used to be a sleepy hollow.  Not any more!  People, buildings and wall tents everywhere. 

 

As best as I can recall of that long-ago trek, everything was pretty flexible.  Arrived late in the day, largely due to my SM's jeep overheating every 100 miles or so.

 

Casually moved through a day of processing at base camp.

 

Throughout the trek, we were usually on the trail by 0800.  Or so.   No pressure from any one.  Rarely saw anyone else on the trail.

[RememberSchiff]

I can identify with NJCubScouter's comments...my sole trek was 40 years ago this summer.

 

Visited base camp last summer.   It used to be a sleepy hollow.  Not any more!  People, buildings and wall tents everywhere. 

 

As best as I can recall of that long-ago trek, everything was pretty flexible.  Arrived late in the day, largely due to my SM's jeep overheating every 100 miles or so.

 

Casually moved through a day of processing at base camp.

 

Throughout the trek, we were usually on the trail by 0800.  Or so.   No pressure from any one.  Rarely saw anyone else on the trail.

 

Our assigned ranger, we first called him Super Scout but by the next day his nickname was shortened to SS and meant something different. Anyway, he insisted we be on the trail by 0700 fed or not, gear wet or dry. Let's Go!  Go.Go. After he left us, we slacked some, but our gear was dry and we were not eating cereal on the trail - a happy balance.

Edited April 15, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Back Pack]

Our assigned ranger, we first called him Super Scout but by the next day his nickname was shortened to SS and meant something different. Anyway, he insisted we be on the trail by 0700 fed or not, gear wet or dry. Let's Go!  Go.Go. After he left us, we slacked some, but our gear was dry and we were not eating cereal on the trail - a happy balance.

So much for letting the crew lead lead.

[TAHAWK]

Three Ranger experiences.  Two were fine.  Other than the obligatory Shakedown, made suggestions to/asked questions of  the Crew Leader.  

 

No. 3 (the "Aggie") was more directive AND insisted no more than one canteen per hiker needed and no insulation layer.  Fortunately, we smuggled extra water bladders as the itin included a period of 21 hrs with no water source in a rugged stretch of terrain.  Unfortunately, when it got cold (40 and high wind/rain/sleet), we had to bag three Scouts who got hyothermic.  (The Scouts from our troop had retrieved their insulation and extra water bottles when the Agie wandered off after the Shakedown.  The three from other units had been more impressed by titles.)

[RememberSchiff]

So much for letting the crew lead lead.

In addition to showing us the outdoor do's and dont's, he hoped our PL would adopt his leadership style and beliefs which may have been better suited for coaching football.

[Back Pack]

Three Ranger experiences.  Two were fine.  Other than the obligatory Shakedown, made suggestions to/asked questions of  the Crew Leader.  

 

No. 3 (the "Aggie") was more directive AND insisted no more than one canteen per hiker needed and no insulation layer.  Fortunately, we smuggled extra water bladders as the itin included a period of 21 hrs with no water source in a rugged stretch of terrain.  Unfortunately, when it got cold (40 and high wind/rain/sleet), we had to bag three Scouts who got hyothermic.  (The Scouts from our troop had retrieved their insulation and extra water bottles when the Agie wandered off after the Shakedown.  The three from other units had been more impressed by titles.)

Sorry but that's when the Advisor steps in and over rules stupid decisions. Philmont seven says 4 liters per person minimum.

[TAHAWK]

Long "step" from a meeting half a mile away.  

 

And your "Philmont seven," can't find it.  Please help.

 

The issue was personal water container capacity.  The Aggie told them one liter/quart.  We had trained them to have three - four liters personal carrying capacity.  Plus, we had the water bladders - 6 gals worth.

 

Here is what I can find today:

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/404/Safety.aspx [includes the incorrect statement that filters don't eliminate viruses - untrue of easily-available filters for several years]

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/TrekPreparation/Shakedown/GearSelection.aspx

 

http://www.planphilmont.com/gear/personal-gear/water-containers/

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/filestore/philmont/pdf/GuidebookToAdventure.pdf[p. 21]

[Stosh]

My only experience with Philmont was with an adult led troop which meant everyone was on the trail by 7:00 am and we reached our destination by noon each day regardless of elevation or distance.  Bleeding blisters were the norm for everyone except me.  I did not race for an hour and then break for 10 minutes.  I kept a steady pace and did not take breaks except for breakfast on the trail about 9:00 am.  The group constantly broke into two due to the hurry attitude of the SM.  He didn't hassle me much for "lagging" behind, but then I didn't blister and I wasn't dead tired when we reached our destination each day.  We covered 110 miles and got in all 5 of the major peaks in the reservation. 

 

So, one can do the fast and furious and miss out on everything along the trail or one can take their time, pace oneself and enjoy the trek.  Both worked even if the two "attitudes" differed and some of the boys had difficulty.

 

It was interesting that only one other adult was allowed to stay back with the "old laggard", but when it came time to designate a different adult to stay with me, there always ensued a heated discussion.  None of the boys were allowed the steady pace option, only one adult, that always was an argument as to who would lag with me.  Eventually it boiled down to the one adult that insisted he stay back with me and that discussion stopped after the first couple of days.  No one other than the SM and the trek lead (high school football player) wanted the fast and furious option.

 

Slow and steady, wise use of time and resources, and in spite of the two options, I was the first one on top of each peak when the time came.  The SM never asked how I was able to do that. 

[desertrat77]

Our ranger disliked our crew from the start. 

 

Granted, the ranger had good reason for his attitude.  Long running SM/ASM conflict/power plays, and on-going battles between certain scouts.   I was used to the dysfunction and learned to keep my distance.  Outsiders were always dismayed and our ranger was no exception.

 

The ranger may have approached the SM in private about the dynamics of our crew.  Either way, he would not have gotten very far due to the SM's dictatorial style.

 

(Exhibit A:  in the SM's office in our scout building, he had a framed picture of Hitler and Mussolini right behind his desk.)

Edited April 15, 2017 by desertrat77

[Back Pack]

Long "step" from a meeting half a mile away.  

 

And your "Philmont seven," can't find it.  Please help.

 

The issue was personal water container capacity.  The Aggie told them one liter/quart.  We had trained them to have three - four liters personal carrying capacity.  Plus, we had the water bladders - 6 gals worth.

 

Here is what I can find today:

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/404/Safety.aspx [includes the incorrect statement that filters don't eliminate viruses - untrue of easily-available filters for several years]

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/TrekPreparation/Shakedown/GearSelection.aspx

 

http://www.planphilmont.com/gear/personal-gear/water-containers/

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/filestore/philmont/pdf/GuidebookToAdventure.pdf[p. 21]

Snide are we?

 

Below is the packing guide. Note the number of liter containers per person they recommend.

 

Since rangers are adults I always make sure I am close by and hear what they tell my crew. That's my job while there.

 

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/TrekPreparation/WhattoBring.aspx

[TAHAWK]

"Snide"?  I don't understand.  I was literally a half mile away when Aggie was culling out the water bottles and insulation.  I didn't learn it had happened until Day 3.  How is it "snide" to point out that fact?

 

The capacity of containers in a couple of the places I linked agreed with your opinion about a minimum of 4 liters capacity per person.  You have a problem with someone citing opinions that agree with yours?  That's a new one for me.

 

Or perhaps you are offended because someone else in Scouting asked you for help in understanding your reference to "the Philmont Seven."  I Googled could not find anything about your "Philmont seven."  So far as I can tell, it is also not referenced at http://www.philmonts...hattoBring.aspx 

 

As Contingent Adviser I had a list of things said to be my responsibility, including attending that meeting  Watching over the Ranger, in hindsight, might have been on the list, but it was not, and did not occur to me.  The four other adults who were at the Shakedown, simply accepted the Ranger as THE authority.

Edited April 15, 2017 by TAHAWK

[Back Pack]

Snide for pointing out an obvious unintentional spelling error..twice. But I'll leave it there.