Cub scouts - How to avoid Lions ?

[Back Pack]

In our troop there's a high correlation between the Cubs whose dens met once a month and them leavin Boy Scouts by 12-13. Those who met twice a month or more lasted much longer.

[RichardB]

I found this interesting. So units are supposed to come up with a Lion Guide, who is an experienced Scouter. Talk about taking away from the Pack. Usually the person that fits that role ends up being CM. 

 

If you are not staffed to roll out the Lion program as suggested in the PDF, I'd simply tell them you guys are not ready, Fred.

 

Yep, that would be running the program as it was designed.    

[Back Pack]

Yep, that would be running the program as it was designed.

 

Well the designers need to step in to the real world to see how the program they have designed really runs. That Ivory Tower thinking doesn't work. Most years we are lucky to get untrained parents to be Den leaders, let alone an experienced leader.

 

If you want membership to rise, think retention, not new acquisition. That's customer service 101.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Back Pack

[bearess]

Can you just tell them that your pack isn't doing a Lion den? How long have you been doing Lions?

I see the arguments against Lions, but as a parent of young kids, most people I know aren't looking to add a new activity in third or fourth grade. Kids/families get set in their routines. Sure, some kids will join at those age groups- but I bet those are outliers. It seems like doing Lions/Tigers is going to get a lot more boys than starting later.

[RichardB]

Well the designers need to step in to the real world to see how the program they have designed really runs. That Ivory Tower thinking doesn't work. Most years we are lucky to get untrained parents to be Den leaders, let alone an experienced leader.

 

If you want membership to rise, think retention, not new acquisition. That's customer service 101.

 

Did you ever think that running it as designed, with an experienced leader would lead to a good outcome, which for a Lion would be transition into a Tiger, a successful summer program, etc........  Part of the program is to not overwhelm the parents of said Lion.    

 

Don't have the minimums to run it right, yep, just say no and focus instead on your internal challenges - that sounds like a good plan.   No need to blame others nor is there a need to assume just becuase someone sits in a different seat today than he or she did a few years back, doesn't mean they don't have a clue.   

[Snow Owl]

We do not have a lion program, The Tiger dens are enough of a struggle.  Tell the council you are not doing the lion program.  You may want to suggest that you will be skipping the FOS campaign if the Lion information continues to get sent to your school.

 

We had a similar issue over popcorn,  we opted out of popcorn sales for a year and council sent popcorn order forms to all our scouts.  When they did it the second time we cancelled the FOS campaign.  That got their attention. The professional side only cares about money and numbers. 

[Col. Flagg]

I have to agree with a few folks here. The way the program is intended to run does not really work once in the field. My pack also struggled every year to find qualified leaders for all den leader positions. Finding another super den leader to run Lions just would not work. 

 

I can appreciate that BSA take time to design the program, but perhaps they should ask the folks in the trenches.

[Eagledad]

Fred, the pack here that did it with the Tigers just quit doing  the Tigers program. Folks may have asked about it occasionally, but not near as much as you would think. In fact, that pack had split some years earlier and the other pack happily joined back. That wasn't their big drive to merge again, but it was a benefit. The DE was on their back a lot, but because they didn't suffer a drop in membership, they stood their ground.

 

Have you considered dropping the Tiger program as well? That would certainly streamline your program.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

I would be curious to know whether anyone in this forum has had a GOOD experience with the Lions program, or knows a pack that has.

[Stosh]

We had only one pack in our council accept the challenge of Lions.  I haven't hear anything one way or another on whether it was a success or not.  I would have thought that if it was a positive experience, they would be encouraging other packs to give it a try as well.  The silence is deafening.

[CNYScouter]

I am in one of the council's that were in the pilot program for Lions.

We started with Lions over 10 years ago.

I don't know how many Packs in the council have a Lions program but I know no one is forcing a Pack to use the Lions program.

Most of the Packs I am familiar with use the Lions program and a re happy with it.

 

We are seeing that burn out rate is no higher with the Lions program than it was before we started using it.

I heard Pack leaders say that the using the Lion program has helped get more parents involved as it gives a year to see how things work.

 

Here are2 Packs that are successful with the Lions program:

 

The Pack I work with has 2 young ladies from the Venturing Crew running the Lions. This is the 3rd year they are doing this and it has worked out great.

 

Another Pack I know has a ex-CM working with the Lions. I think this was one of her Woodbadge tickets. Her kids (and grand kids) have aged out of Scouts and she stayed involved by working with the Lions (and their parents).

 

As with any Scout program, if you make it fun the boys will stay

[fred johnson]

I am in one of the council's that were in the pilot program for Lions.

We started with Lions over 10 years ago.

I don't know how many Packs in the council have a Lions program but I know no one is forcing a Pack to use the Lions program.

Most of the Packs I am familiar with use the Lions program and a re happy with it.

 

We are seeing that burn out rate is no higher with the Lions program than it was before we started using it.

I heard Pack leaders say that the using the Lion program has helped get more parents involved as it gives a year to see how things work.

 

Here are2 Packs that are successful with the Lions program:

 

The Pack I work with has 2 young ladies from the Venturing Crew running the Lions. This is the 3rd year they are doing this and it has worked out great.

 

Another Pack I know has a ex-CM working with the Lions. I think this was one of her Woodbadge tickets. Her kids (and grand kids) have aged out of Scouts and she stayed involved by working with the Lions (and their parents).

 

As with any Scout program, if you make it fun the boys will stay

 

I always fear "pilot" programs have a distorted experience as the packs are selected because they would be more likely to succeed, have special cases (dedicated experienced leader that take ownership) and being in a "pilot" to creates ownership such that you don't want to fail.  "Pilot" programs are good to know if a program could work.  "Pilot" programs are bad in that they don't help you learn if it would work for the majority of units.

[fred johnson]

Fred, the pack here that did it with the Tigers just quit doing  the Tigers program. Folks may have asked about it occasionally, but not near as much as you would think. In fact, that pack had split some years earlier and the other pack happily joined back. That wasn't their big drive to merge again, but it was a benefit. The DE was on their back a lot, but because they didn't suffer a drop in membership, they stood their ground.

 

Have you considered dropping the Tiger program as well? That would certainly streamline your program.

 

Barry

 

Dropping Tigers ... I fully believe we would have at least the same if not more cubs in our pack if we started it at a higher age.  The only fear I have is those families that are long-time scouters would go to any of the other eight packs in our city.  It's the old nuclear option.  If one has it, they all do.  But even then, I think it would be the better choice to not to Lions or Tigers.  Start at the age when you can introduce knives, fire, bows and arrows, etc.  In my opinion, that's 2nd grade.

Edited April 4, 2017 by fred johnson

[Col. Flagg]

Dropping Tigers ... I fully believe we would have at least the same if not more cubs in our pack if we started it at a higher age.

 

Chatted with my old Pack last night. CM dropped Tigers. They have 20+ kids in all other dens...and more joining in the fall. They were struggling previously. Dropped Tigers and the program grew and grew.

[bearess]

This is our first year doing Lions. It's been great so far-- boys and parents like it and are enthused. It obviously remains to be seen how it will go long term-- I think all the Lion boys plan to stay in through Tigers. I suppose time will tell in terms of retention, but for this year, it's going great!