Eagle Project - Who must participate

[fred johnson]

I would find it kinda hard to lead people and yet not be present to do so at the project execution.  

 

I tend to agree.  But at the same time, the scout could fully setup the project with people in different roles and the project could occur.  I'm just noting that there is no requirement that the scout be there on the day that most people work.  

 

I made the comment because there is no requirement in workbook or the Guide To Advancement that the scout must be present when the majority of the work occurs.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by fred johnson

[Stosh]

If the boy is smart enough to break down his work crew into two and each one starts on opposite ends of the trail needing restoration, it is obvious that the leader can't be in two places at the same time, but the project gets done in half the time. 

[qwazse]

If the boy is smart enough to break down his work crew into two and each one starts on opposite ends of the trail needing restoration, it is obvious that the leader can't be in two places at the same time, but the project gets done in half the time. 

If the boy is smart enough to provide dinner at the midpoint (assuming a reputation for cooking up some serious meals), I bet the project time gets cut by more than half .

[Stosh]

Without a doubt.  That would truly fall into the realm of leadership of "taking care of his boys".  If he takes care of them, they will follow by taking care of him.  It's always surprising to everyone that leadership is more effect in getting results and even beyond than just plain management and project completion.

[RememberSchiff]

I tend to agree.  But at the same time, the scout could fully setup the project with people in different roles and the project could occur.  I'm just noting that there is no requirement that the scout be there on the day that most people work.  

 

I made the comment because there is no requirement in workbook or the Guide To Advancement that the scout must be present when the majority of the work occurs.  

 

Too true. I know a scout who was away on a school trip during his planned Eagle project work week. In his absence, he "delegated" the on-site project leadership to his Dad.

 

IMO, that was another troop service project not an Eagle service project.

[DuctTape]

Too true. I know a scout who was away on a school trip during his planned Eagle project work week. In his absence, he "delegated" the on-site project leadership to his Dad.

 

IMO, that was another troop service project not an Eagle service project.

When I hear about situations like this it really bothers me. This is a perfect example of using the GTA, and rules to provide an award based on not really being deserving. I would bet good money most of the work preceding the project was also delegated to dad. I have seen it happen in my neck of the woods, a scout eagle project being planned, designed, and executed by adults with the boy holding a clipboard and writing in his workbook. So sad. This is what happens when the badge becomes the goal instead of recognition of something else coupled with the "can't deny a boy who checks off boxes" mentality. I have no problem with adults being led by the boy, but it appears a line was crossed long ago. I partially blame the "construction project" type projects. /rant

[Back Pack]

It's not the projects. It's the adults.

 

Parents who can't let go. Adults grilling kids and looking for reasons to fail him.

[fred johnson]

I know a scout who was away on a school trip during his planned Eagle project work week. In his absence, he "delegated" the on-site project leadership to his Dad.

 

I've sat on many Eagle BORs now.  I must admit that I'd be very tempted at the EBOR to tell the scout he needs to find another project. He'd have to explain strongly how he setup the project such that his dad could lead it.  Otherwise, I'd assume it's a dad driving the whole project.

[Stosh]

So the question remains....is the boy leading by delegating out the various tasks to boys and adults alike and then doing a "staff" review afterwards to make sure the task is completed?  Sure, that smacks of good management but is it not always good leadership of taking care of his staff and their success with what they were assigned to do?  The buck stops with the leader.  Is he doing proper task assignments and following through regardless of whether that task is assigned to an adult, or does it only "count" if it's another boy? 

 

As an example, a number of trees need to be cleared off the trail reconstruction process.  No boy is allowed to use a chain saw, so the task is delegated to an adult to run the saw.  The adult knows which trees need cutting up and at his direction, the boys remove the logs from the trail.  Does that make the whole project "run" by the adult?  What if the candidate is off with another team of boys raking off the leaves and sticks while the adult is cutting trees?  He's not present, nor is he doing the work.... but is he leading nonetheless?

[Col. Flagg]

So the question remains....is the boy leading by delegating out the various tasks to boys and adults alike and then doing a "staff" review afterwards to make sure the task is completed?  Sure, that smacks of good management but is it not always good leadership of taking care of his staff and their success with what they were assigned to do?  The buck stops with the leader.  Is he doing proper task assignments and following through regardless of whether that task is assigned to an adult, or does it only "count" if it's another boy?

IMHO, the Scout shows leadership by delegating and managing the outcome. If an Eagle candidate has a few different workstreams (task areas) for his project, he can certainly delegate by those areas. He assigns the appropriate people, assigns tasks by the tools the Scouts are allowed to use, conducts the safety review for each area, and assigns someone to head the task. HOWEVER, his leadership (and management) does not end there. He must continue to get hands on in each area, making sure that the end result is what he designed/planned. If issues come up he needs to be there to address them. Reviewing after-the-fact is not doing 100% of his job in either leadership or management.

[Stosh]

"He must continue to get hands on in each area, making sure that the end result is what he designed/planned. If issues come up he needs to be there to address them. Reviewing after-the-fact is not doing 100% of his job in either leadership or management."
 
Being in two or three places at the same time is something I've never been able to manage myself.  I surely wouldn't expect it of any of my Eagle candidates.  Simply standing around watching an adult cut up trees with a chain-saw might not be a very productive leadership and/or management option either.  Sometimes good leadership involves 1) careful explanation of expectations for the task, 2) make sure they are capable of doing the task, 3) occasional observation to make sure things are going smoothly, and 4) follow-up to make sure the task is completed and the person assigned/delegated the task feels they have contributed successfully with the work.
 
Leave any of those things out, and I would question their leadership, not management.  The goal is to have people feel they have contributed something worthwhile to the project and feel good about it.  It's the taking care of others part of leadership over management that I focus on. @Col. Flagg, you are correct, one can't leave out any parts of the process to make it a good Eagle project.

[Col. Flagg]

"He must continue to get hands on in each area, making sure that the end result is what he designed/planned. If issues come up he needs to be there to address them. Reviewing after-the-fact is not doing 100% of his job in either leadership or management."

 

Being in two or three places at the same time is something I've never been able to manage myself.  I surely wouldn't expect it of any of my Eagle candidates.  Simply standing around watching an adult cut up trees with a chain-saw might not be a very productive leadership and/or management option either.  Sometimes good leadership involves 1) careful explanation of expectations for the task, 2) make sure they are capable of doing the task, 3) occasional observation to make sure things are going smoothly, and 4) follow-up to make sure the task is completed and the person assigned/delegated the task feels they have contributed successfully with the work.

 

I am not saying he has to be in two places at the same time, obviously. However, the Scout does need to move around, YET he needs to get "hands on" to show and demonstrate...where he can. He can show good planning by making sure his team leads use phones or radios to contact him if needed. Shows good planning, management and leadership. 

[Stosh]

Yep, that's #1 and #2.  Having explained and trained, then comes the question of whether or not they are able to do what is expected.  A good leader lays the ground work for success.

[Tampa Turtle]

Depends on the boy. I was on a Project recently where the bear of a boy was doing most of the work to avoid telling others what to do. So his folks stepped in. I had to pull them aside to let him lead and then explain to him what he needed to do. After a while he was demonstrating what needed to be done (it was moving and re-aligning headstones) and then letting others do the work; he did a good job--for him it was a stretch-and he was able to have more than 1 party working and Mom and Dad stepped back to taking pictures and fetching food.

 

I have seen other boys really do detailed logistical planning and set themselves up as a 'command post' as parties in different locations. Occasionally they would have to problem solve. 

 

I have also seen almost absent boys let their parents or volunteers figure everything out--I really don't think that demonstrate leadership.

[gumbymaster]

So the question remains....is the boy leading by delegating out the various tasks to boys and adults alike and then doing a "staff" review afterwards to make sure the task is completed?  Sure, that smacks of good management but is it not always good leadership of taking care of his staff and their success with what they were assigned to do?

 

@@Stosh, you have spoken often on your view of the difference between leadership and management; however, I, personally, view 'management' as I understand it from your use of the term, to be just one of the many styles of leadership.  It can exist together with or independent from other styles such as servant leadership or delegation.  I would still consider the effective management of a project to be a demonstration of leadership.

 

I also view, terminology aside, the Eagle project to really intend to mean management of a 'large scale' (relative to the Scout's prior experience) project.  This as a way to prepare them to lead/manage efforts in their future.  The Positions of Responsibility are there to let the Scout find their style of leadership (as I understand you to described it) - taking care of their boys, helping them to learn necessary skills and grow into their own leadership roles.  The project really seems intended to apply those skills to achieve a more external goal.

 

That said, I also would look twice at an Eagle CANDIDATE who delegated the final implementation details of their project to another - in doing this they would lose on all the learning that comes from those 'last minute challenges' that always come up.  While it is true that a 'perfectly' planned project would not have any ... when has anyone seen a perfectly planned project with no need to adapt to circumstances on the fly.