CubScoutMom2004 Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 If a church is the charter organization, is it required that the Cubmaster or Troupmaster be a member of that particular church? Can a COR require this? Can it also be a requirement that all the leaders be a member at that church? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneHour Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 "If a church is the charter organization, is it required that the Cubmaster or Troupmaster be a member of that particular church?" No, our charter org is a Methodist Church. Only two of the adult leadership team are members of the church and they are neither the Scoutmaster nor the Committee Chair. One of them is the COR and another is an Assistant Scoutmaster. "Can a COR require this?" Technically, the COR is required to be a member of the Charter organization selected and approved by the Institutional Head of the Charter Organization. Since the Charter Org "owns" the troop or pack, then part of the troop or pack policy or procedure might involve the requirement of all leaders be members of the church and the COR represents the CO, he/she can mandate this. The CO has the responsibility of approving all leadership. There is no BSA requirement that I have run across that requires an adult leader be a member of the CO. For our Pack (an elementary), the principal allows the Pack to choose the COR. The COR is one our parents who are very active in volunteering at the school and who knows the principal very well. The principal has no problem with this person ability to look out for the school and the Pack's best interest. As for our Troop, our COR is a member of the Church. "Can it also be a requirement that all the leaders be a member at that church?" Again, I have not run across this requirement. If the troop or pack recruit from the charter org (ie. the church) then there is a higher likelihood that all leaders are members of the church. For our troop, we recruit from the schools and packs; as a result, we have a very diverse group of scouts and leaders with different religious background. We usually have a non-denomination prayer at functions.(This message has been edited by OneHour) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoscout Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 We had a CO that did just this. They chartered a Pack and Troop for their youth groups and required that everyone be a member of that church. It started as a well intended thought, and ended horribly. The initial leadership (those who started the unit), had no idea of the work that goes into running a successful operation. They overestimated both the support that would come from the congregation, and the number of kids that would sign up for the program. In the end they had few leaders and few kids, and wanted to recruit in the community but the CO wouldnt let them, and, the other units in the area threw up roadblocks. They really had no program to recruit into anyway. The leaders left, the kids didnt transfer into any local units. Just a big disaster. This should not have been allowed to happen! Too much incentive for the DE to charter new units! By the way, the DE got a promotion and moved on before the units folded. CubScoutMom2004, I would urge your people to look to the future before placing hurdles in the way of membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubScoutMom2004 Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 Thank you so much for the feedback. I am currently a den leader in the pack I am referring to and not a member of the church that charters us. There is one person that does not care for our Cubmaster so our COR is throwing up a roadblock to try and get him out by requiring that he be a member of the church. This has not been a pre-requisite before now. The CC is a member of the church but no other active leaders of this pack are members. It is really sad because we have a wonderful pack and an awesome cubmaster. As much as I hate all of the "politics" I have already told our cubmaster that if he leaves the Pack, I will follow him to a new Pack. It is a shame to see a great pack get broken down my a couple of people that like to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleInKY Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 I am aware of a few church's that require the primary leaders (Committee Chair, Cubmaster, Scoutmaster) to be members. I am not aware of any that make that requirement of all leaders or scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 There is no rule saying any adult or Youth member MUST be members of the charter organization other than the COR. However each charter organization is free to do so under the policies of the BSA. Most units do not choose to do this, but in fact some do. Charter organizations may be more restrictive, but not less restrictive than the BSA's membership rules, with some exceptions (for instance they may not determine membership by race, but may do so based on religion IF sponsored by a specifc religious demonination). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 BW's answer is correct. If you are chartered by a church, the church may set those kinds of restrictive standards. In this day and age that is unfortunate. The only suggestion I would make is for someone to approach the pastor, minister, priest, or whoever is designated on the charter as the "institutional head or leader". The COR is just that. The representative of the chartered organization. If he or she is pursuing a personal agenda to the detriment of the program, their is a chain of commnad that can be followed upwards. It takes some courage. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txscoutdad Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 I want to share my experiences with the troop that my son and I are in. We are chartered by a Christian Homeschool Association, restricted to only those members and requiring a signed statement of shared faith. We live in a large city and have about 60 to 70 registered scouts and about 50 to 60 active with over 15 new Webelos moving up from our cubpack. We have a large group of active dads with about 20 to 25 on each campout. I want to challenge Eisely's statement about it being unfortunate that such restriction exist. If it is allowed by the BSA than are we not following the program???? Are you telling me that all troops are cookie cut molded just alike, no variations? "In this day and age that is unfortunate." What happened to acceptence of others and their faith. Just because one troop is not open to all does not make BSA being not open to all. I would agree with him in that if the COR is changinga requirement for one person only, that is not in the Charter Bylaws, than that person is out of line and following a personal agenda. Fotoscout, I understand your frustration with your situation, but was it the fault of the way the CO wanted to charter the troop or the fact that it seem that the leadership was lacking in training and support from the church. Remember, the CO owns its Troop program and with in BSA guidelines can set up the Bylaws of their program as the want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 " In this day and age that is unfortunate." You must find the LDS troop to be abhorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 " We have a large group of active dads with about 20 to 25 on each campout." 20 to 25 adults on a campout are at least 15 too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txscoutdad Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 FOG, The quote was not mine but was from Eisely's post. No I do not have a problem with the LDS troops. On the number of dads, it take a lot of vehicles to transport the size troop we have and pull the trailers. We also have ASM signing off requrements after the older scouts have taught them by having them demostrate it to an adult. We also have a lot of dads cooking for the dads working and guiding the boys, dads judging for honor patrol awards, and like in another post, sitting around the campfire gaurding the coffee pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneHour Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 "20 to 25 adults on a campout are at least 15 too many." Not really, if 60 boys are attending the campout and if we don't count vans then there are only 3 seat belts per car for the boys which equates to 20 adults are required to go on the campout to transport these young men to and from camp. For our troop, we usually have 6-10 adults to transport 30-40 kids and equipment. CubScoutMom2004, you can inquire the CO or the Institutional Head of the CO to clarify the Church's stance on membership and leadership. If the CO has no stance, by-laws, policy, or the likes, then it's up to the Committee to search and present the best person to fill the job (who best meets all requirements set out BSA and the CO). Eventhough the COR has the final saying for the CO, if you go by the books (the BSA book and the CO book), the COR will not have the firm ground to stand on for his/her objection. http://www.scouting.org/commissioner/resources/18-981.pdf Politics have no place in scouting. It's sad but I have experienced them first hand and back hand!(This message has been edited by OneHour) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 I certainly respect the right of churches as chartered organizations to stipulate that key leaders, or for that matter, all the registered adults, to be part of that church or faith. All the troops that I have been involved with, or worked with in some capacity, were a little more broad minded than that, and I think their programs benefited from that. In the case as originally described, it sounds like the church membership question was being used as on an ex post basis to force somebody out. One wonders if the broader church leadership would support such a policy when they haven't enforced it in the past, and it may lead to disruption of the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Firm ground not required. The COR is the CEO of the scouting program in the unit according to the BSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubScoutMom2004 Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 Our Cubmaster met with the pastor of the church. The pastor feels our cubmaster has done a wonderful job and does not want him to leave. Our COR on the other hand, does have a personal agenda when it comes to forcing our cubmaster out. He and our committee chair have been planning this. Our cubmaster is the 4th on this pack has had in 3 years. Sad. Depending on what happens in the next couple of days, our cubmaster may step down and start another Pack. He is awesome and has tons of support at the district level. His son has already crossed over to boyscouts yet he continues to devote his time. A few leaders, as well as myself, that know what is going on, have told him we would go with him. This is all such a shame. Good cubmasters are hard to find so I would definately follow the one we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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