Dilemma

[Back Pack]

I love the hair splitting here. SMCs are not BORs, so the rank is not done until the BOR is done. That's in the GTA. The Eagle exemption is for Eagle only. You're making up your own rules to suit you and that's unfair.

 

The Scout and unit leaders had well over a year to make sure their scouts were not impacted. Either the unit leaders or the scouts dropped the ball, but 1/1/17 was a pretty clear deadline. It's March, nearly April and this should have been handled months ago.

 

Not using the new requirements now is akin to cheating. Sorry.

[andysmom]

I love the hair splitting here. SMCs are not BORs, so the rank is not done until the BOR is done. That's in the GTA. The Eagle exemption is for Eagle only. You're making up your own rules to suit you and that's unfair.

 

The Scout and unit leaders had well over a year to make sure their scouts were not impacted. Either the unit leaders or the scouts dropped the ball, but 1/1/17 was a pretty clear deadline. It's March, nearly April and this should have been handled months ago.

 

Not using the new requirements now is akin to cheating. Sorry.

 

IMO what would be unfair is making scouts who finished the requirements and had their SMC at the last troop meeting of the year do the new requirements because we couldn't get a BOR together the last 2 weeks of the year (for various reasons)

 

As far as the original poster goes, it begs the question of why a BOR has not been completed before now and exactly when did he complete the requirements.  Just because you are involved in other activities does not preclude you from the rules everyone must follow.  Was there an attempt by the committee to be more flexible about their boards to accommodate the scout, why couldn't the scout speak to their coach about being late to or leaving early from practice.  I think honest answers to those questions should determine the answer.  Scouting is about character building, if the scout had any opportunity for a BOR far earlier than now and chose not to make an effort than it is on him.  On the other hand, if the committee did not make any effort to work with the scout's schedule, that needs to be accounted for (again, my opinion)

[Stosh]

A scout finishes all his requirements the day before his 18th birthday......except for this EBOR.  Well, Sonny, you had 7 years to figure this out, you knew it was coming, and the rules are the rules.  Too bad. 

 

I would just remind the boy that life is not fair and the rules are the rules.  He's over 18 years of age anyway so he's not a registered Boy Scout and one doesn't need to handle this situation with kid gloves.

 

Life can change in an instant,..... Happy Birthday.

[qwazse]

I love the hair splitting here. SMCs are not BORs, so the rank is not done until the BOR is done. That's in the GTA. The Eagle exemption is for Eagle only. You're making up your own rules to suit you and that's unfair.

 

The Scout and unit leaders had well over a year to make sure their scouts were not impacted. Either the unit leaders or the scouts dropped the ball, but 1/1/17 was a pretty clear deadline. It's March, nearly April and this should have been handled months ago.

 

Not using the new requirements now is akin to cheating. Sorry.

Are we making our own rules? Or, are we reading the GTA as it is written, and proceeding accordingly?

You seem to want to ignore all that verbiage about not holding up a boy because of adults' shortcomings. You also seem to want to ignore the experience of folks who've seen how this stuff has gone on appeal. Isn't that akin to cheating?

 

A scout finishes all his requirements the day before his 18th birthday......except for this EBOR.  Well, Sonny, you had 7 years to figure this out, you knew it was coming, and the rules are the rules.  Too bad. 

 

I would just remind the boy that life is not fair and the rules are the rules.  He's over 18 years of age anyway so he's not a registered Boy Scout and one doesn't need to handle this situation with kid gloves.

 

Life can change in an instant,..... Happy Birthday.

Yeah sure, @@Stosh, but this isn't about the kid's 18th birthday and 7 years as a tenderfoot scout.

 

Lacking other information, this is about the adults not getting their acts together in December to help the boy avoid this situation.

 

Unless @, you all did tell the boy to line up his BoR, and he blew you all off.

[Back Pack]

IMO what would be unfair is making scouts who finished the requirements and had their SMC at the last troop meeting of the year do the new requirements because we couldn't get a BOR together the last 2 weeks of the year (for various reasons)

 

As far as the original poster goes, it begs the question of why a BOR has not been completed before now and exactly when did he complete the requirements.  Just because you are involved in other activities does not preclude you from the rules everyone must follow.  Was there an attempt by the committee to be more flexible about their boards to accommodate the scout, why couldn't the scout speak to their coach about being late to or leaving early from practice.  I think honest answers to those questions should determine the answer.  Scouting is about character building, if the scout had any opportunity for a BOR far earlier than now and chose not to make an effort than it is on him.  On the other hand, if the committee did not make any effort to work with the scout's schedule, that needs to be accounted for (again, my opinion)

Then your unit leaders should have managed this better. You had over a year to prepare for this. The scouts should have known this.

 

It's not fair to the other kids who obeyed the rules. It's not honest IHMO.

[NJCubScouter]

A scout finishes all his requirements the day before his 18th birthday......except for this EBOR.  Well, Sonny, you had 7 years to figure this out, you knew it was coming, and the rules are the rules.  Too bad. 

 

I would just remind the boy that life is not fair and the rules are the rules.  He's over 18 years of age anyway so he's not a registered Boy Scout and one doesn't need to handle this situation with kid gloves.

 

Life can change in an instant,..... Happy Birthday.

 

 But the Guide to Advancement specifically says the EBOR can take place after the 18th birthday.  (With no permission from anybody within 3 months, or with council permission between 3 and 6 months, or with national approval after that.)  Some Eagle candidates rely on the fact that they can do the EBOR after their birthday.  (Too many, and my son ended up being one of them, and yes, technically he was not a registered member of the BSA at the time he had his EBOR.  Two of our troop's last three Eagles weren't either.)  

 

There is nothing magic in that rule.  The BSA could just as easily decide that the EBOR must take place before the Scout is 18, but I think they would have the change take effect at some future date after announcing it, like 6 to 12 months.  It would effectively shorten the time the Scout has to complete the other requirements, and it would affect different Scouts differently depending on how EBOR's are scheduled in their council.  (Which are two of the reasons it probably will not be changed.)

[4CouncilsScouter]

I love the hair splitting here. SMCs are not BORs, so the rank is not done until the BOR is done. That's in the GTA. The Eagle exemption is for Eagle only. You're making up your own rules to suit you and that's unfair.

 

The Scout and unit leaders had well over a year to make sure their scouts were not impacted. Either the unit leaders or the scouts dropped the ball, but 1/1/17 was a pretty clear deadline. It's March, nearly April and this should have been handled months ago.

 

Not using the new requirements now is akin to cheating. Sorry.

 

Generally speaking, we expect our unit leadership to provide a program using the most-up-to-date information available. However, at the end of the day, the BSA is a volunteer organization. We rely on our volunteers to do their own research, e.g. Bryan on Scouting, ScoutingWire, Guide to Advancement, but any volunteer will tell this isn't a perfect system.

 

Not saying this right, many unit leaders and Scouts will defer to what's in the handbook they had they joined the unit. If unit leadership is not attending roundtable, or doing their own research, it's very easy for volunteers to take the path of least resistance. We don't exactly make these updates easy to find or compile. How many of the 1 million+ volunteers in the BSA are checking Heath and Safety Alerts, the Training Times, or the Commissioner. We have an information overload for our volunteers, so we strive to keep the program as consistent as possible, and we make our units the best they can be.

 

My two-cents.

[Col. Flagg]

If volunteers are missing something as easy as rank advancement changes, I shudder to think what else they are missing in their application of the outdoor program. This is elementary. What happens when it comes to issues of safety such as swimming, boating, shooting sports, etc.?

 

Doesn't every registered Scouter get at least Scouting Magazine? There's a resource that discussed this issue which should have been obvious. Shouldn't UC's have been doing their job and checking with units to make sure they were 1) aware of the changes, and 2) aware of the deadlines.

 

I can sympathize with the "we're just over-worked volunteers" argument, but with the number of resources espousing these changes you'd have to really try not to see them.

[Scoutmaster Teddy]

Are we making our own rules? Or, are we reading the GTA as it is written, and proceeding accordingly?

You seem to want to ignore all that verbiage about not holding up a boy because of adults' shortcomings. You also seem to want to ignore the experience of folks who've seen how this stuff has gone on appeal. Isn't that akin to cheating?

 

Yeah sure, @@Stosh, but this isn't about the kid's 18th birthday and 7 years as a tenderfoot scout.

 

Lacking other information, this is about the adults not getting their acts together in December to help the boy avoid this situation.

 

Unless @, you all did tell the boy to line up his BoR, and he blew you all off.

 

@@qwazse I wasn't Scoutmaster last year. Our Asst. Scoutmaster/Advancement Chairman has been in ill health and passed away a couple days ago. I was left in lurch, but I'm learning a lot.

 

This is the only Scout we had in this predicament. After reviewing the newer requirements, I determined that it would not take much effort to "do the right thing" and delay the BOR. The Scout in question was a tad disappointed, but it's not the end of the world. (As a side note I'm not convinced he is really "gung-ho" about Scouting...)  

 

I feel better about the whole thing now. The next task is to reconcile Troop Records (handwritten) to our Troop web site (on Troop Web Host) to Council and National. Wish me luck!

 

Dean

Edited March 22, 2017 by deanofmac

[Scoutmaster Teddy]

Thank for all of the replies and insights! I'm still learning. They are very much appreciated. I am enjoying the candor of the list!

 

Dean

Edited March 22, 2017 by deanofmac

[Col. Flagg]

@@qwazse I wasn't Scoutmaster last year. Our Asst. Scoutmaster/Advancement Chairman has been in ill health and passed away a couple days ago. I was left in lurch, but I'm learning a lot.

 

This is a very extenuating circumstance. I would, though, wonder why the SM was not more proactive in their role in getting the word out to the Scouts.

 

If you don't have any advancement tracking software, I would recommend getting one (like TroopMaster) to help in your role. This will help identify Scouts that may be in jeopardy like this much sooner.

 

Good luck.

[4CouncilsScouter]

deanofmac,

 

No problem, thanks for letting us share a bit of insight.

 

Seconding Col. Flagg's idea, getting some kind of advancement tracking software would be great a resource for your troop. I'd check into Scoutbook and with your council. I know some have started offering the service for free to Scouting units, and there are plans to fully integrate Scoutbook with the BSA's advancement systems!

[Col. Flagg]

. I know some have started offering the service for free to Scouting units, and there are plans to fully integrate Scoutbook with the BSA's advancement systems!

 

I'd be careful. Most councils have their own systems and they can vary.

[fred johnson]

A guy going for Eagle went past the "grandfather" date given by national for the new EDGE requirement, so he had to complete that to get rank. He didn't because his SMC and BOR were after the start date of that requirement. Council told him to go back and do the requirement.

 

Good thing too, because he would not have made Eagle as a result. I'd get council to weigh in and note in his record their response, otherwise, as well-meaning as everyone is this may come back to bite him.

 

That had to be a troop decision.  EDGE is a life rank requirement.  Councils never see individual rank requirements.  BORs review whether rank requirements are complete.  Life BOR is fully within the troop.  As council doesn't look at individual requirements and council doesn't sit on a Life BOR, it had to be a troop decision.  Even the Eagle BOR only looks at the individual Eagle rank requirements.  It does not go back and re-check all previous rank requirements. 

[perdidochas]

But here's a potential problem with that approach: What happens when someone at council looks at his records in Internet Advancement and says, "Gee, your BOR was after 1/1/17 and you should have been using the 2017 requirements."

 

We had that happen 2010 when the requirements changed last time. A guy going for Eagle went past the "grandfather" date given by national for the new EDGE requirement, so he had to complete that to get rank. He didn't because his SMC and BOR were after the start date of that requirement. Council told him to go back and do the requirement.

 

Good thing too, because he would not have made Eagle as a result. I'd get council to weigh in and note in his record their response, otherwise, as well-meaning as everyone is this may come back to bite him.

I don't buy that.  The completion of individual rank requirements are not sent to the Council.  All that is sent is the record of rank completion.