Stosh Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Why should they have to? Our former Prez didn't have to. and if one can't provide one, they are in no position to prove it either way. Where do you think 8 year old kids learn how to get away with anything they want unless they have lessons like this? I just saw someone here in America can prove he is heir to the British monarchy. Good luck with that. I'm thinking the British laws are taken more seriously than we on this side of the pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Well, the issue here is that at face value, the unit violated state antidiscrimination law by accepting the membership, then later kicking the kid out. So the council had a legal and public perception loser on their hands. Settle the suit and have a lesson learned. Was fraud committed by the family? Because the BSA rules in force at the time was to use the sex listed on the birth certificate. Can you have discrimination where fraud was the basis for the membership in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Was fraud committed by the family? Because the BSA rules in force at the time was to use the sex listed on the birth certificate. Can you have discrimination where fraud was the basis for the membership in the first place? Did it say that in the application? The last version of the app I've seen just asks for gender, not providing any standard by which gender is established. If the parent talked to the pack leaders about it, which it sounds like the mother did in this case, checking the "male" box isn't necessarily fraud. We don't know exactly what was said between the parent and leaders. Maybe she asked for guidance and a leader told her to check the "male" box. We don't know, hence the "rush to judgement" I mentioned earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Applying for membership in a male organization using a male organization application when one is not male, can be construed as fraud. Rush to judgment, just produce a birth certificate and that should be plenty of evidence one way or the other. Were the parents asked to provide a birth certificate? Was there anything in the application that stated that birth certificate gender must be indicated on the app? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Were the parents asked to provide a birth certificate? Was there anything in the application that stated that birth certificate gender must be indicated on the app? No, the application asks what IS the person's sex, not what do they think or what they want it to be. The application asks what IS the person's address and phone number, not what they think or what they want it to be. As soon as one opens the flood gates, it is only a matter of time before BSA leadership will accept pedophiles because after all, these people love to work with children just like everyone else. While one may think that pedophiles working with children unacceptable, I for one see no difference with that than giving young men free access to young girls' restrooms and locker rooms. It just depends on whether one is the parent of a daughter or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 No, the application asks what IS the person's sex, not what do they think or what they want it to be. The application asks what IS the person's address and phone number, not what they think or what they want it to be. In New Jersey that's actually not how it works. Self-identifying gender is even allowed on a NJ drivers license. So in this case, in this state, yes indeed the gender is what Joe and his parents say it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 In New Jersey that's actually not how it works. Self-identifying gender is even allowed on a NJ drivers license. So in this case, in this state, yes indeed the gender is what Joe and his parents say it is. I'd like to be a 6'4" Swedish ski instructor. Just because I put it on a form doesn't make it true...or honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Because the BSA rules in force at the time was to use the sex listed on the birth certificate. In which book did you find such a rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Were the parents asked to provide a birth certificate? Was there anything in the application that stated that birth certificate gender must be indicated on the app? I know you didn't ask me, but I would bet a dollar that the answers are No, and No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 In which book did you find such a rule? The same place Reuters quoted maybe? http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN15F022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 As soon as one opens the flood gates, it is only a matter of time before BSA leadership will accept pedophiles because after all, these people love to work with children just like everyone else. Sooner or later, every thread in Issues and Politics ends up in ridiculous analogies like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 In New Jersey that's actually not how it works. Self-identifying gender is even allowed on a NJ drivers license. So in this case, in this state, yes indeed the gender is what Joe and his parents say it is. In my state it is illegal to sell butter produced outside the United States. After all does anyone know what is going on in the food production beyond the scope of the FDA? Or Wild Alaskan Salmon, a product of China (yes, that's what the label said), Sooner or later, every thread in Issues and Politics ends up in ridiculous analogies like this. And it wasn't that long ago that I thought anyone thinking females could be BOY Scout leaders, and the boys could be gay, and the leaders could be gay and now girls can be boy scouts if they lie on their application. What makes one think this analogy is ridiculous? Just exactly when will we be getting to the bottom of the slippery slope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 We're pretty close to the bottom of this slope now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 We're pretty close to the bottom of this slope now. One has yet to reach the limits of the public's imagination. We're a long ways from being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 In my state it is illegal to sell butter produced outside the United States. After all does anyone know what is going on in the food production beyond the scope of the FDA? Or Wild Alaskan Salmon, a product of China (yes, that's what the label said), Ok. But we're not talking about butter or salmon. Were talking about gender identity, and the rules about that are pretty clear in the state in which this case took place. School laws in NJ are similar. The fraud suggestion just doesn't hold up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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