Ditch the Neckerchief

[EmberMike]

I quoted you exactly and then paraphrased ... my apologies if my word choice touched nerves. 

 

 

I never said anything about "looking excessively gay, as if that's a bad thing." 

 

It's not about touching a nerve, you attributed words to me that I never said, and no paraphrasing of anything I've said would even lead to that kind of an interpretation. 

 

You're way out of line suggesting I said anything like that. Disagree with me all you want, but don't attribute words to me that I never said. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by EmberMike

[SSScout]

Six plus pages about the Scout Neckerchief.   Not Handkerchief.  Not Kerchief.  Wow.

 

Find/order/read "Matching Mountains With the  Boy Scout Uniform"  from  1929.    https://www.amazon.com/Matching-Mountains-Boy-Scout-Uniform/dp/143256918X

 I was lucky to find a copy in an second hand thrift shop.   Look to page 87 chapter "The Necessary Neckerchief" .  It talks (at length !) about the symbolism, practicality, and "necessity"  of the BIG neckerchief.   They list no fewer than 50 (!)  uses. Signaling, horse harness, first aid, boat rigging, game team ID, sun protection, dust mask, all kinds of things  the Scout might be expected to "Be Prepared"  to whip off his 'necker and do.  Oh, he was in Uniform at all times, right? 

 

So , us Concerned People are concerned concerning why Scouts don't like wearing the uniform, don't like wearing the neckerchief, don't like wearing a ""Scout"" hat, (shudder) don't like being identified as a  "Scout"?   

Am I hearing a pattern developing here? 

 

My favorite response to the peer query " Oh , you're a Boy Scout? Woo Hoo !"  was "Yeah, I went to Philmont and hiked a hundred miles in the Rockies last summer, What did you do ?"

[qwazse]

Okay, so as not to offend EM, let's be clear. The highlighting is mine ...

 

That's not at all what I said and I kindly ask that you re-read my original post. 

 

I mentioned the change in necker shape and size, hence the lost utility of it. The apparent lack of necker use at National, except for a few exceptions, which makes me wonder if the gears are already in motion to reduce the necker uniform policy further. 

 

I never said others shouldn't wear them if they want to, and in fact I'd fully expect that many people would continue to wear them even if National did officially cut them from the uniform. 

 

My "excuses" were logical and I posed the question of what others thought. Hardly "whiny", I thought. 

 

So, you're not discussing a change in uniform policy where the standard would not include neckerchiefs.

We're not discussing how excuses like "dorky", "uncool", or even "non-utilitarian", etc ...comes off as "whiny" and possibly irrational.

 

Okay.

 

I guess that means we can't discuss how some think it is that a simple piece of fabric worn as described in the BSHB connects them with scouts around the world, and scouts of yesteryear ... (and maybe some chefs, cowpokes, sailors, etc ...). Because all of that is irrational emotional or doesn't happen in everyone's neck of the woods.

 

Let's just talk about how some boys are having fun with neckers, while others are not.

 

Open questions in my mind are:

 

1. How do we give boys a fair picture about neckerchief wear and use?

2. How do we overcome BSA's slips in the production and sale of pre-printed neckerchiefs?

3. When should a troop who has opted-out of neckerchiefs as part of their uniform be asked to reconsider their decision?

4. When should boys who don't usually wear neckerchiefs be prepared to wear them?

5. What about camporees with neckerchief challenges?

6. What about that scout who comes from a jamboree, conclave, or moot and insists on donning a neckerchief (or more, it can get absurd) at meetings/CoH's in a troop who has opted out of them?

[blw2]

When I was doing reenacting in a heavy wool uniform, dark blue in 100^o+ weather, I still wore a necker.  I used it as a hot pad for campfire cooking.  When the barrel of the gun got to hot to hold the necker came off and wrapped around my hand.  The kepi cap would allow the sun access to the back of the neck.  Necker took care of that.  Need a wash cloth?  Necker,   To this day I have 8 36" square reenacting neckers left over from reenacting in my bedroom drawer.  When I go hunting, fishing, gardening, mowing the lawn, cutting trail in my backwoods, roasting marshmallows with my grandkids, there is a non-scouting necker always there ready to use if not around my neck in my left hip pocket.  It was something I learned as a camping kid and never got out of the habit.

I'm curious

when re-encating in uniform

or when wearing as a purely functional / casual item such as when doing yard work

how do you tie or otherwise fix the necker?  assuming no woggle, right?

[fred johnson]

Fred Jones' ascot has been curiously absent from this discussion...

 

lol ... scooby doo

[EmberMike]

Open questions in my mind are:

 

 

I'd be happy to respond to your questions, but I won't. Not as long as you don't even acknowledge that you've attributed things to me that I never said. I won't have a discussion with someone who makes up things and says that I said them. 

[TAHAWK]

"Bandanna or neckerchief.  These are so common that every boy will recognize at once what is meant by a bandanna.  The members of each patrol wear bandannas made in the colors of their patrol. These can be purchased at any local dry goods store at ten of fifteen cents each."

 

B.S.A., Boy Scouts Handbook (1911) at p. 360.

[Stosh]

I'm curious

when re-encating in uniform

or when wearing as a purely functional / casual item such as when doing yard work

how do you tie or otherwise fix the necker?  assuming no woggle, right?

 

1) Fold into a triangle,

 

2) Left hand necker shorter than the right, like one would do starting a dress tie. This is the standing end.

 

3) Right necker (running end) over left and go behind.

 

4) come around under the running end. 

 

5) From the top, tuck running end down next to and parallel with the standing end.

 

If it doesn't need to be outside the shirt, I just tie a square knot and pull my collar up and over it.  That works best if I wet it first and the necker stays wet longer and produces a cooling effect longer.

 

This produces a sliding knot overhand knot that loops the left standing end. 

 

It looks neat like a dress tie and when pulled tight will work just as well as the woggle for holding the necker in place.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Stosh

[Cambridgeskip]

Looked away from this for a few days ago and it all explodes!

 

Anyway, a thought about the difference in wearing neckers between USA and here in Europe.

 

How often do you camp and there are other troops/units/packs in the same place?

 

I ask because as I said earlier it is used symbolically here, more as a troop identifier than it is as a practical piece of kit. Population density means that wild camping is pretty rare and the vast majority of the time we camp on scout owned campsites and there will nearly always be other troops there. I've been a leader since 1997 and on racking my brains I can identify just 4 nights of camping (2 for cubs, 2 for scouts) where we were the only group at a given site and that is probably a common experience for most in Europe. Hence he need for an easily identifying symbol so I can spot one of mine the other side of the field and indeed they can spot each other. Equally when things start getting competitive it's a team bonding thing! And when friendships are made it's something to swap.

 

If you are less used to seeing 6 other troops in the same area for the weekend maybe that's how culturally it's become less of the norm in the USA.

 

Update - you can spot the site we'll be camping at in a couple of weeks time on Google earth here. I can count what looks like 5 different groups there on what is a 75 ish acre site. This is pretty standard.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Cambridgeskip

[Back Pack]

If you ever have a picture taken for Boys' Life they DON'T want you in Class A uniform. I doubt you'd get any troopin the US wearing their troop tshirt and a neckerchief. Bandanna maybe, but scout neckerchief? No way.

[qwazse]

If you ever have a picture taken for Boys' Life they DON'T want you in Class A uniform. I doubt you'd get any troopin the US wearing their troop tshirt and a neckerchief. Bandanna maybe, but scout neckerchief? No way.

We need to remind ourselves that it's a big country ...

 

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/08/21/scout-neckerchiefs-now-approved-wear-nonuniform-clothing/

 

... and fashion is fickle.

 

Following the photos of youth giving BSA's Report to the Nation this year, I see 2 of the 5 boy scouts and 1 of the two venturers wearing neckerchiefs.

[Stosh]

What I find rather strange is how this discussion just like the others is intended to take a choice away from the boys in the program.  Necker?  Take it or leave it.  No big deal, So why is it so important to take away that option for those that like neckers?  Too often we see people thinking that there's only one choice in life.  If others don't see it my way, then I must somehow work to make sure they do even if that means taking away the freedom of their choices.

 

I like neckers, they are functional in many ways.  It's okay to have the option/choice not to wear them, others can do and make do with their choices.  However, I find it offensive that others find it necessary to take away my freedoms to assuage their guilt for changing the rules to fit their personal choices.

[Col. Flagg]

One picture?

 

All I can tell you is in nearly 20 years of Scouting, I have never seen Scouts wear their t-shirts and neckers. Jambo? Sure. Kandersteg? Absolutely.

 

Never, ever at Philmont, Seabase, NT, or any council camp.

[Eagle94-A1]

One picture?

 

All I can tell you is in nearly 20 years of Scouting, I have never seen Scouts wear their t-shirts and neckers. Jambo? Sure. Kandersteg? Absolutely.

 

Never, ever at Philmont, Seabase, NT, or any council camp.

 

That's because until a little under 2 years ago, wearing a necker without the uniform was not allowed in the USA. 2007 WSJ celebrating the Centenary created World Neckerchief Day, where Scouts are suppose to wear their neckers. That created the push to make wearing neckers without the uniform an option. Again this has only been since June 1, 2015 at the earliest, not even 2 years. And it didn't get publicity until August 2015

[Col. Flagg]

That's because until a little under 2 years ago, wearing a necker without the uniform was not allowed in the USA. 2007 WSJ celebrating the Centenary created World Neckerchief Day, where Scouts are suppose to wear their neckers. That created the push to make wearing neckers without the uniform an option. Again this has only been since June 1, 2015 at the earliest, not even 2 years. And it didn't get publicity until August 2015

 

Can you blame BSA for not pushing this too hard? They had $143m in revenue in 2015 from "supply", which is their sales from ScoutStuff and Scout Shops, etc. I doubt necker sales were their strong performers. I cannot see BSA pushing this.

 

In my area, and the regions we travel, you don't see neckers. At Philmont last year I think we saw two units wearing neckers with their field uniform...one of them was from Sweden.