Patrol Yell for Coyote Patrol

[T2Eagle]

Here's a suggestion for them.  

 

We love xbox,

We love xbox,

Yay, xbox!

 

Is that one you might come up with?  Does it seem like a good Coyote patrol yell?  That's OK, you're not in the patrol, and you're not responsible for the patrol.

 

The point almost everyone here was trying to make is that these four boys could certainly reach consensus on what xbox game to play --- because they see it's in their interest to do so.  Hopefully, they'll be going camping next month and doing their own meal planning, they'll reach a consensus about what to eat --- because they'll see it's in their interest to do so.  They'll come up with a patrol yell --- when they decide it's in their interest to do so. Likely they'll go through several yells before they really settle on one, probably parroting versions of yells that they hear from the other patrols.  And if they don't, that's OK, you're not in the patrol, and you're not responsible for the patrol, some of the older boys, who are responsible for them, will help them hammer out some sort of compromise, that's the point of being a Boy Scout.

 

One of the hardest transitions in scouting is for adults going from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.  It's been your job for probably five years to make sure that they get done what they need to get done.  Abruptly this weekend that changes, it's now your scouts' job to be responsible for their accomplishments.  They won't do all the same things at the same time, they won't get all their advancement together, they won't be having your guidance to make it all happen.  

 

But it should be great for them, so as everyone else said, relax, have a cup of coffee, and sit back and watch.  It actually will be more fun for you too.

[Eagledad]

Arrows? I don't need no stinking arrows.

 

Barry

[blw2]

Unless they know the reason for the yell, what's the point?  In all my years of Scouting no one has been able to have a patrol yell for any other reason than for meeting a useless requirement.

 

exactly right.

When we come together at camporee, and again at summer camp, for morning flags....

we do the troop yell thing at "flags"

Some troops really get into it, ours doesn't.  I think it would be great if they did.... I think it would be more fun than the scouts know to have and to show a little troop pride.

but I have NEVER seen anyone do any sort of patrol yell.

I really think it could be so much more fun than the scouts even know to have some patrol spirit.... & I think if patrol spirit was fostered more, the patrol method would be used better to its potential....

 

OK historian Stosh, a question?.... did ever in the past they have a practice of calling role when the troop comes together....just like they do for troops at summer camp before flag opening?  So that at the opening of the troop meeting..... the SPL says "is the Coyote Patrol present?"....

   If so, THEN there would be a reason for a yell.

         I can even imagine using it when the troop comes together at summer camp or camporee.... instead of a "troop yell", it's each patrol sounding off in sequence.

Edited February 22, 2017 by blw2

[RememberSchiff]

It takes adults to make the simple, complex.

[Stosh]

 

@@Stosh I felt your first response was a 'lil dismissive. Well explained comment regarding the history of the patrol yell in your second however. Up arrow'd. So if you're still keeping score, you're even good sir.   (Our patrols don't use yells btw.)

 

Looking back I guess it may at first appear to be dismissive, but in fact, I was trying to get across how useless the functionality of the requirement has become.  I would dearly love to see the requirement go back to it's original usage and be something that benefits the espirit-de-corps for the boys.  If used properly, I think it can be not only a helpful tool, but something the boys would enjoy.  The way it is viewed today is nothing more than an extra "requirement" for advancement that means nothing of value to the boys, like say, maybe the Buddy System is where boys pair up and take care of each other.  That makes sense.  A patrol yell to parrot back to adults doesn't.

 

As far as "keeping score" goes.  I don't worry about that.  I just use the up and down arrows to gauge the comments I am making on the forum.  2 up and 2 down indicates to me a strong division, maybe something to pursue further, thus the added historical background from which I come from.  I do wish that those that arrow up or down, follow up with comments in response rather than just a hit-and-run either way. 

 

 

 

OK historian Stosh, a question?.... did ever in the past they have a practice of calling role when the troop comes together....just like they do for troops at summer camp before flag opening?  

 

Yes, the patrol yell gathered the boys together.  After they were bunched up, there is no need for the Yell.  Obvious, why is anyone yelling when everyone's standing next to you?  The patrol yell was a short distance communication tool in and around camp.  The longer distant communication was the responsibility of the bugler.  It is similar to the troop bugle calls.  REVEILLE is the morning wake up call.  One will notice it is the longest of all the calls because by the time the bugler got to the last note, the soldier/scout was to be out of bed and standing in line for morning roll call.  Then there is the ASSEMBLY call, this is the long range troop call that functions exactly the same as the short distance patrol yell.  Once they are all formed up, inspected and ready to go they wait for the TO THE COLOR call which then they march to the parade field as a troop of patrols  This practice of communication and directives is how communication was done with large numbers of men.  "Back then" they didn't have cell phones and email with a distribution list to get everyone gathered up.  .  Along with the yell, there's the patrol flag.  I hear my PL giving the yell, and one looks in the general location through sound directive, but that could be a pretty wide area.  The guy waving the flag, a visual communication tool.  Is it OUR patrol flag or some other PL's patrol flag?  I recognize my own and I now know that I am being summoned and where to find the gathering point.  Kinda like RALLY ON THE FLAG call.  Which Flag?  If all the PL's are yelling Rally on the flag, it's kinda useless.  But if they give the patrol yell, they know which flag to rally to. 

 

So that at the opening of the troop meeting..... the SPL says "is the Coyote Patrol present?"....

   If so, THEN there would be a reason for a yell.

 

At a general meeting where everyone is already gathered, the SPL takes a patrol roll. and the PL simply calls out, Coyote Patrol, all present (he's taken a patrol roll) OR (not AND) accounted for, meaning those not there are excused.  No need for everyone to be yelling.  An important piece of information from PL to SPL should not be interrupted with a lot of yelling. 

 

         I can even imagine using it when the troop comes together at summer camp or camporee.... instead of a "troop yell", it's each patrol sounding off in sequence.

 

In an ideal world, the camps should be using the patrol method and yes, the roll of units at morning and evening flags should be done by patrol as a patrol roll call, but the PL would again, being in close proximity, should give the patrol roll answer, "Coyote Patrol all present or accounted for".  If the PL report doesn't go it tells the group, a patrol is missing or worse yet, "Coyote Patrol, present, one member unaccounted for."  Now it gets exciting.  The benefits of the system far out-weigh the boys all standing around yelling about who gets to go first in the chow line.

 

I am very "dismissive" of how the requirement is being used today.  Functionally it is nothing more than a time to make jokes with a "catchy" campfire style skit yell.  I would like to see it being used as it was intended to be so that it can become a useful tool once more for the boys instead of something to laugh about.  It has its basis in the military and yes it sounds a bit military, but it is a quick and efficient way to gather the patrol, gather the troop, get to the parade field, give a brief accounting status of membership in the camp and get on to chow with the least amount of goofing around.  One would think that a quick roll call of the boys before each meal would be functionally more appropriate than who goes first.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

Looking back I guess it may at first appear to be dismissive, but in fact, I was trying to get across how useless the functionality of the requirement has become.  I would dearly love to see the requirement go back to it's original usage and be something that benefits the espirit-de-corps for the boys.  If used properly, I think it can be not only a helpful tool, but something the boys would enjoy.  The way it is viewed today is nothing more than an extra "requirement" for advancement that means nothing of value to the boys, like say, maybe the Buddy System is where boys pair up and take care of each other.  That makes sense.  A patrol yell to parrot back to adults doesn't.

 

As far as "keeping score" goes.  I don't worry about that.  I just use the up and down arrows to gauge the comments I am making on the forum.  2 up and 2 down indicates to me a strong division, maybe something to pursue further, thus the added historical background from which I come from.  I do wish that those that arrow up or down, follow up with comments in response rather than just a hit-and-run either way. 

 

 

 

OK historian Stosh, a question?.... did ever in the past they have a practice of calling role when the troop comes together....just like they do for troops at summer camp before flag opening?  

 

Yes, the patrol yell gathered the boys together.  After they were bunched up, there is no need for the Yell.  Obvious, why is anyone yelling when everyone's standing next to you?  The patrol yell was a short distance communication tool in and around camp.  The longer distant communication was the responsibility of the bugler.  It is similar to the troop bugle calls.  REVEILLE is the morning wake up call.  One will notice it is the longest of all the calls because by the time the bugler got to the last note, the soldier/scout was to be out of bed and standing in line for morning roll call.  Then there is the ASSEMBLY call, this is the long range troop call that functions exactly the same as the short distance patrol yell.  Once they are all formed up, inspected and ready to go they wait for the TO THE COLOR call which then they march to the parade field as a troop of patrols  This practice of communication and directives is how communication was done with large numbers of men.  "Back then" they didn't have cell phones and email with a distribution list to get everyone gathered up.  .  Along with the yell, there's the patrol flag.  I hear my PL giving the yell, and one looks in the general location through sound directive, but that could be a pretty wide area.  The guy waving the flag, a visual communication tool.  Is it OUR patrol flag or some other PL's patrol flag?  I recognize my own and I now know that I am being summoned and where to find the gathering point.  Kinda like RALLY ON THE FLAG call.  Which Flag?  If all the PL's are yelling Rally on the flag, it's kinda useless.  But if they give the patrol yell, they know which flag to rally to. 

 

So that at the opening of the troop meeting..... the SPL says "is the Coyote Patrol present?"....

   If so, THEN there would be a reason for a yell.

 

At a general meeting where everyone is already gathered, the SPL takes a patrol roll. and the PL simply calls out, Coyote Patrol, all present (he's taken a patrol roll) OR (not AND) accounted for, meaning those not there are excused.  No need for everyone to be yelling.  An important piece of information from PL to SPL should not be interrupted with a lot of yelling. 

 

         I can even imagine using it when the troop comes together at summer camp or camporee.... instead of a "troop yell", it's each patrol sounding off in sequence.

 

In an ideal world, the camps should be using the patrol method and yes, the roll of units at morning and evening flags should be done by patrol as a patrol roll call, but the PL would again, being in close proximity, should give the patrol roll answer, "Coyote Patrol all present or accounted for".  If the PL report doesn't go it tells the group, a patrol is missing or worse yet, "Coyote Patrol, present, one member unaccounted for."  Now it gets exciting.  The benefits of the system far out-weigh the boys all standing around yelling about who gets to go first in the chow line.

 

I am very "dismissive" of how the requirement is being used today.  Functionally it is nothing more than a time to make jokes with a "catchy" campfire style skit yell.  I would like to see it being used as it was intended to be so that it can become a useful tool once more for the boys instead of something to laugh about.  It has its basis in the military and yes it sounds a bit military, but it is a quick and efficient way to gather the patrol, gather the troop, get to the parade field, give a brief accounting status of membership in the camp and get on to chow with the least amount of goofing around.  One would think that a quick roll call of the boys before each meal would be functionally more appropriate than who goes first.

Seems like a lot of talk to say "OK, I shouldn't have said anything". If we truly want to get into what scouting traditions "adults" think should or shouldn't be used today, we aren't too far from debating the value of knots AND lashings in todays Velcro/bungee cord culture.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Seems like a lot of talk to say "OK, I shouldn't have said anything". If we truly want to get into what scouting traditions "adults" think should or shouldn't be used today, we aren't too far from debating the value of knots AND lashings in todays Velcro/bungee cord culture.

 

Barry

 

Well, as a camper, hunter, gardener, and even when I tie my boots in the morning, I use the knots all the time.  I don't think a days goes buy that the double half-hitch isn't used.  I do use the figure eight loop more than the bowline, though.  Knots are very functional in today's world.  Lashings, not so much, but I make camp gadgets all the time,  I do the tripod lashing in my garden for my peas, tomatoes and beans, for example.  Sure I could cobble it all together in the spring, but the weight of the plants will have them sprawling all over the place before harvest unless a good tripod lashing isn't in place.

 

Along with a quick look at a couple of pages in the SHB, maybe a bit of discussion on functionality needs to be in place to show the boys WHY they are learning this stuff.  My buddy system is referred to as a marriage.  The patrol method is referred to as a family, and the boys can get real-world understanding as to why these requirements are important to know.

[blw2]

Excellent summary there @@Stosh!

 

I was thinking just around the fun "patrol spirit" angle, like a cheer.  That is in affect what the troops are doing during the flag ceremony at camps, right....more like a cheer.  I did see that it encourages spirit, and all of that.

 

The stuff you write about really gives the practice some teeth.  Makes it practical and useful even.  Too bad this kind of thing isn't taught.  Not saying the scouts would buy into the idea, but if they were taught it at least they would be given a chance to consider it.

[qwazse]

Wow.  That was really not helpful and kind of mean spirited to be honest.  I'm sorry I asked.

 

There are 4 of them moving as a patrol and they have been arguing among themselves for several weeks about the best patrol yell.  I thought if I had a few fresh ideas for them maybe they could all agree and get started on the right foot.

 

And FYI our troop patrols use their yell at the end of every meeting.

@@ShutterbugMom, I was one of those who led off with the "not your problem" shtick. But I was dead serious about making the boys go to the library to research this. Especially if they are at loggerheads over it. As long as they aren't getting into wrestling matches and breaking furniture, they need to go through this forming-storming-norming-performing process on their own ... perhaps with the guidance of an older scout.

 

You know when your troop will use them. I'm assuming they do too. They might even be getting a rise out of you being irritated by this. (I was an 11 year old WEBELOS once, and getting our DL to blow his stack was a favorite pastime of ours. So, pardon me if I've wrongly generalized my childhood to your boys. )  So, feeding them concrete ideas from strangers on the internet will just reward their drama.

 

Don't get me wrong you absolutely must keep the heat on (e.g., "You guys might look a little like Tiger cubs at the end of the meeting if you don't settle on a yell."), but you must at the same time distance yourself from the problem ("I'm sure you guys can figure this out. Just remember the 4th and 5th points of the scout law while you do.")

 

There are somethings that are sacred. And boys' patrol "image" is one of them. Unless it's blatantly obscene, we keep our hands off.

[Stosh]

Excellent summary there @@Stosh!

 

I was thinking just around the fun "patrol spirit" angle, like a cheer.  That is in affect what the troops are doing during the flag ceremony at camps, right....more like a cheer.  I did see that it encourages spirit, and all of that.

 

The stuff you write about really gives the practice some teeth.  Makes it practical and useful even.  Too bad this kind of thing isn't taught.  Not saying the scouts would buy into the idea, but if they were taught it at least they would be given a chance to consider it.

 

Every PL, whether he was in uniform or not would carry a BSA whistle on a lanyard to use as a communication device with his patrol.  It was as common a sight as wearing just the necker today.  It was his identification as a PL.  I have purchased some of these whistles off of Ebay and two came with the original lanyards.  I don't know when this practice became obsolete, but I think it is a shame we have lost the functionality of such practices.  A short whistle signal to the patrol members really is far more effective in range than running around like a chicken with it's head cut off screaming at everyone which seems to be the accepted practice today.

 

Oh, one other thing, I think the range of those BSA whistles was greater than even the bugle.  This is why scouts are carrying a whistle in their survival kits anyway.  Sure would be good to actually use them for something other than bulk in a survival kit.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

Wow.  That was really not helpful and kind of mean spirited to be honest.  I'm sorry I asked.

 

There are 4 of them moving as a patrol and they have been arguing among themselves for several weeks about the best patrol yell.  I thought if I had a few fresh ideas for them maybe they could all agree and get started on the right foot.

 

And FYI our troop patrols use their yell at the end of every meeting.

 

As someone else mentioned, there is a VERY big difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. One thing I tell new adults in the troop is that "you must unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda would say. Our job as Scouters, notice I do not use the term "leaders," is to let them figure it out for themselves, even failing in whatever task is given to them, while making sure they are in a safe environment.

 

Trust those of us who have been around a while when we say:   Adult interference causes more long term problems than it solves short term problems. Adult interference nearly destroyed my troop because too many adults were jumping in to help when they should have said, " Ask your PL." and "Not my problem."

[qwazse]

... Oh, one other thing, I think the range of those BSA whistles was greater than even the bugle.  This is why scouts are carrying a whistle in their survival kits anyway.  Sure would be good to actually use them for something other than bulk in a survival kit.

Loved my tin whistles. (The first one was probably from my oldest brother's scout gear.)

Then, as we became a kayaking family and I volunteered supervising aquatics, the Fox 40 became my friend (no waiting for a cork ball to dry before the volume kicked in).

Then National Camp School came out with the philosophy that life guards shouldn't have whistles -- undue sense of superiority and other such truck.

Someone, please introduce me to the guy who asked for a ruling on that .

[Stosh]

Yeah, that sounds stupidly PC.  Feelings over safety.

 

If you have the newer BSA whistles they have the cork ball in them like the sport whistles.  They have their limits.  The historic BSA whistles are tubular and have no cork.  Their tone is more mellow and deeper in pitch, but the sound is very distinctive than the sport whistle which would make them stand out from the rest  The British Scout whistles are tubular as well, but they have a dual sound (think train whistle) which makes them an even more unique sound.  If one has the British whistle and everyone else has the cork ball sport whistles, the sound will stand out from all the rest.  I don't know if the tubular whistles have the sound range that the more shrill sport whistles do, but they should suffice for any camp setting.

[Col. Flagg]

Scout: "Dad, my new patrol buddies and I have been arguing for weeks on what our patrol yell should be. Can you help?"

 

Dad: "What would you like me to do that you can't do for yourself?"

 

Scout: "Find for me some cool examples that we might not be able to find?"

 

Dad: "Is your computer or phone broken? Is the Internet down? Do you not know what to search for?"

 

Scout: "No. I just want you to solve it for us."

 

Dad: "If I help you it will be my solution, not yours. You won't have learned anything. You and your friends need to resolve this like any other playground dispute. If you lack ideas use the library or the Internet to find some yourself. You don't want me doing your homework for you, do you?"

 

Son: "No, I guess not. But it will be faster and easier if you do it."

 

Dad: "Gee, you're right. But again it will be my solution, not yours. You need to solve this on your own."

[Eagledad]

Well, as a camper, hunter, gardener, and even when I tie my boots in the morning, I use the knots all the time.  I don't think a days goes buy that the double half-hitch isn't used.  I do use the figure eight loop more than the bowline, though.  Knots are very functional in today's world.  Lashings, not so much, but I make camp gadgets all the time,  I do the tripod lashing in my garden for my peas, tomatoes and beans, for example.  Sure I could cobble it all together in the spring, but the weight of the plants will have them sprawling all over the place before harvest unless a good tripod lashing isn't in place.

I use to teach at Scoutmaster Fundamentals that a boys world doesn't rotate around the Scoutmaster. As far as scouts are concerned, most adult's over 40 were probably in the revolutionary war. For an adult to appeal to a boy's eagerness to learn, they must approach the boy in his world. Truth is the vast majority of youth today rarely ever tie a knot, even shoe laces. So when the old-man goes off lecturing practical uses of knots in todays world, all the scouts see is the SM using knots to hook together the old rusty plow to mule for days work in the field.

 

Scouts might get lucky and use the knots while camping, especially is some adult points out good uses for the knots. Tent races with the old cabin tents are good ways of encouraging faster learning. But, cabin tents are getting fewer and harder to find.

 

The value of BSA knots, and many of the first class skills, in this culture is that they help a boy grow in the practice of initiating goals and using frustration or success of completion to encourage more goals and more successes. Knots are ideal at this age because boys rather learn by doing something with their hands then listening to the old-timer tell stories of saddling horses for the Pony Express. Growth is balanced on how the scout feels during the task. It's a fine line between the sense of accomplishment for the correct knot and the sense of frustration from making several integral tedious turns of a rope to find success. Success means setting or initiating another goal, maybe a higher goal. Frustration means building patience in a continued effort so as not to let failure prevail. As a man, he will experience both, so the practice of learning the proper response of performance leads to a lifestyle of maturity to handle both success and failure.

 

Just as important, knots and other first class skills develop the habit of setting goals and initiating small processes to accomplish the larger task. It's not a theory, we watch it in our own troop. Scouts encouraged to set further goals after the success of learning a previous skill became more confident leaders as older scouts compared to our older scouts who transferred from other troops. The difference in confidence to initiate actions to complete goals was striking when compared to scouts that didn't learn their first class skills in our troop. I also attribute it to our large number of Eagles because we do not push for them. Once a scout develops the habits of setting goals  and follow through to completion, the requirements toward Eagle happen almost by just showing up.

 

Then there is the adult comments toward scouts creativity. When I trained scoutmasters, I instructed them to resist giving personal opinion. As much as we like to think we treat scouts as equal adults, the scouts always see adults as authoritative. At least until about 16. And when a scout suggest a creative idea to the adult, he is more than likely looking for permission to pursue the idea by the adult words and body language. A young adult is always looking for acceptance by the old adult. So when the SM goes off into a history lesson of why, when and where such an idea may have once had value because in the old days of churning butter, and thusss bla bla bla...., the scout only hears, "sounds stupid to me". I have watched many scouts drop an idea simply because the adult gave an opinion. It is better to practice the art of listening and responding with "hmm, I would like to see that". And then just walk off. Even our least direct words have a lot of power.

 

Sadly our culture doesn't encourage creativity from our youth, I agree with other scoutmasters that creativity is a skill many youth just plan struggle with. And it is fragile, if we adults show any kind negative opinion toward the their idea, they drop it.

 

As for the cheer. Kind of a strange discussion here about how to justify it, or not, through tradition. Tradition? Our troop started a Troop JLT course that the older scouts present once a year. Somehow, the course got a reputation and other troops started sending their scouts. One of the activities they started using in the course was a competition of using semaphore. I came from a time of using semaphore a lot and was glad to forget it. But we said sure, lets see what happens. Turns out the scouts today love putting signals together and communicating with scouts a football field away. The older scouts love the exercise and used it for years. Apparently tradition can be fun.

 

Our troop uses cheer regularly. It's a method of unity really. The patrols mostly do a cheer at the beginning of the Flag Ceremonies. SCOUTS ATTENTION! COLOR GUARD ATTENTION! "LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET OUT THE WAY!". Or whatever they create.

 

The cheer can be made up promptitude for the moment like during a special ceremony for ECOR. But it is a small way of showing pride for the group. And it's not just patrol pride, sometime the cheers can get competitive, and healthy competition pulls all the patrols together of showing pride.

 

As much as cheers work at the patrol and troop level, our troop typically volunteers for Color Guard at summer camp. The scouts who do the service usually create something quick, but catchy. And they typically get some clapping by the other troops. But it also typically sets the other troops on a tone to one-up the last cheer and it grows into a camp competition. A way of camp unity. Pretty cool really.

 

Cheers can be a great patrol method tool when the old scoutmaster is willing to let it. Even encourage it a little. I once challenged our color guard at summer camp to do a silent version of the service. Our guys are pretty cocky after doing these for a few years, so I challenged their egotistical confidence.  I have heard of the silent color guard presentation, but never saw one. I didn't know what to expect. So imagine the color guard getting in position, standing in silence for a few seconds, and then performing the flag service without a single call from the leader. The only sound is wind and birds. It has to be practiced to look sharp. But if done well, the color guard marches back into the ranks with an ovation by the camp. Try it if your troop has an opportunity.

 

Scouting is giving scouts the opportunity to like themselves from their own personal choices. I learned to leave nothing behind. Sometimes an old idea is what is needed. Anybody do chariot races with lashings and poles? It's a fun way to teach lashings.

 

Ah I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry