"Traditional" or "Mixed" Patrols? what is your driving force for doing this?

[Back Pack]

@@Sentinel947, if one uses a new scout patrol run by an adult (which is the case where I live), that's not Boy Scouts, that's Cub Scouts. So there are cases where the type of patrol would matter, no? That is if one wants to be true to the concepts of Scouting.

[qwazse]

@@Sentinel947, if one uses a new scout patrol run by an adult (which is the case where I live), that's not Boy Scouts, that's Cub Scouts. So there are cases where the type of patrol would matter, no? That is if one wants to be true to the concepts of Scouting.

That's not an NSP. That's a den.

[Eagle94-A1]

That's not an NSP. That's a den.

 

EXACTLY! (emphasis, ok maybe a little shouting in agreement with you and Back Pack  )  When I was the ASM assigned to the NSP, after we discovered the "dictator," I tried my darndest not to intervene, just make sure everything was OK. I hated every minute of it because I did feel like a Den Leader.

 

And as you all know this is when my troop was having some leadership disagreements, which added to the problems I and the troop was having.

 

When we went away from the NSP, our issues went down drastically, and the Scouts are learning things faster with the older Scouts workign with the younger ones.

[TAHAWK]

It's supposed to be up to the Scouts.

 

Why is this so difficult?

[qwazse]

It's supposed to be up to the Scouts.

 

Why is this so difficult?

Why? Because it's the scouter's "leap of faith."

 

When I was an ASM with my sons' troop, I was assigned to be a patrol's "advisor". I think the SM was doing this to placate some adults' angst.

After assuring the SM that I would happily assist him in that task, I went to the PL and said something like, "I'll be next door contemplating my next cup of coffee. If you think you need me. Think again. But I'm available."

 

That PL never needed to talk to me -- except if he needed an espresso. But getting a reputation for not ripping things out of the boys' hands, I was often approached by PL's and TG's about their challenges.

 

By way of full disclosure, we've had a run of boys who are so easy-going about who's in their patrols that they abdicate the responsibility of assigning patrols to the adults. At first, I thought it was our troop's tragedy, but those boys eventually aged out. Then I thought it was the merging troop's Web3 culture, but really that's not as pronounced. I think that it's because of lack of 1) physical distance camping and separate rooms meeting and 2) recognition as distinct entities during roll call, CoH's, etc... .  We need a few more scouters and older boys taking "leaps of faith".

Edited February 10, 2017 by qwazse

[Sentinel947]

@@Sentinel947, if one uses a new scout patrol run by an adult (which is the case where I live), that's not Boy Scouts, that's Cub Scouts. So there are cases where the type of patrol would matter, no? That is if one wants to be true to the concepts of Scouting.

What these troops call themselves is irrelevant. I can micromanage a mixed age patrol, and it ceases to be a patrol when I do so. The same is true of NSP's. Webelos 3, Troop method may be more apt discriptions for those troops.

 

Just because troops mess up mixed age patrols and lose older Scouts interest, or mess up NSPs and have adults "helping" doesn't mean it cannot be done properly by another troop IMO.

 

Adults leading patrols is not part of the patrol method. Youth leadership is an essential ingredient of the patrol method.

 

To have a group of boys led by an adult and calling it a patrol is not the patrol method. To have patrols on paper but do everything by troop is not the patrol method.

 

If you are calling what my troop does a den, then we will have to agree to disagree. I believe how my troop operates is meeting the essential mechanics of the patrol method. Scouts are with their friends, they make their own decisions independent of adults.

 

It works for us, we've never tried mixing new Scouts into older patrols. After that age mixed patrols is our norm. Nobody has ever asked in the 12 years I've been in the troop to have new scouts in their patrols or had new scouts ask to be in older boy patrols. So its working for us, no point changing it.

 

Sentinel947.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Sentinel947

[Col. Flagg]

That's not an NSP. That's a den.

 

Yup...it is what we call Webelos III. 

 

We see this a lot in our area. In fact, our RT had this as a topic this year. I was amazed at the number of troops that use this format. 

 

Our kids would go insane if the adults were in their camp site at all, let alone LEADING them. We'd lose 90% of our Scouts.

[mashmaster]

Our NSP is all 1st year scouts with 2 older scouts that help teach them via the edge method.  It is beneficial IMHO for both the younger and older scout.  They are all boy run and they decide what they want to do it is just that the older scout can teach them how to cook a hamburger then watch as they cook their own burger for example.  Or show them different cooking techniques.   After 6 months they go into the other patrols with a mix of ages.  It seems to work out well.

[Stosh]

Our NSP is all 1st year scouts with 2 older scouts that help teach them via the edge method.  It is beneficial IMHO for both the younger and older scout.  They are all boy run and they decide what they want to do it is just that the older scout can teach them how to cook a hamburger then watch as they cook their own burger for example.  Or show them different cooking techniques.   After 6 months they go into the other patrols with a mix of ages.  It seems to work out well.

 

That's what the TG and Instructors are supposed to be doing, but they can do that without taking away the leadership responsibilities of the NSP PL/APL team.

 

A domineering TG can be just as destructive to the patrol as an adult.

 

And by the way at the end of the first year, the boys don't NEED to go into other patrols unless they want to.  Bug difference if forced to.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Stosh

[mashmaster]

That's what the TG and Instructors are supposed to be doing, but they can do that without taking away the leadership responsibilities of the NSP PL/APL team.

 

A domineering TG can be just as destructive to the patrol as an adult.

 

And by the way at the end of the first year, the boys don't NEED to go into other patrols unless they want to.  Bug difference if forced to.

Our patrol doesn't have a PL or APL.  The patrol works more communal at first since they are all new.

 

We haven't had domineering TG's we have had the opposite.  We have had the opposite where the TG's just ignore them.  That is when we have "The discussion"  about responsibility and leadership.

 

We haven't had that issue about them not wanting to go into patrols yet.

[Stosh]

Our patrol doesn't have a PL or APL.  The patrol works more communal at first since they are all new.

 

We haven't had domineering TG's we have had the opposite.  We have had the opposite where the TG's just ignore them.  That is when we have "The discussion"  about responsibility and leadership.

 

We haven't had that issue about them not wanting to go into patrols yet.

 

With a non-existent PL/APL team and a dysfunctional TG, I would want to get out of there, too!      Sounds like a recipe for disaster.  If his is how the NSP is run, I can see why it fails.

 

My PL/APL have the opportunity to be fully functional right from the beginning.  With my current situation of a new troop I don't have the luxury of a TG and with no older scouts, I have made a pact with my troop that I will teach all the S->FC skills ONCE.  They had better pay attention, and they do.  Just this last weekend they were (on their own) making rope and whipping the ends.  A couple of the boys that missed that session earlier when I taught it, got caught up with it when the other boys (Scout Rank) taught them.  I have one TF scout, 3 Scout scouts and 2 still struggling to get off the ground.  Neither the PL nor the APL is the TF scout.

 

They are never too young to learn and they are never too young to lead.  Just give them the chance.

[mashmaster]

With a non-existent PL/APL team and a dysfunctional TG, I would want to get out of there, too!      Sounds like a recipe for disaster.  If his is how the NSP is run, I can see why it fails.

 

My PL/APL have the opportunity to be fully functional right from the beginning.  With my current situation of a new troop I don't have the luxury of a TG and with no older scouts, I have made a pact with my troop that I will teach all the S->FC skills ONCE.  They had better pay attention, and they do.  Just this last weekend they were (on their own) making rope and whipping the ends.  A couple of the boys that missed that session earlier when I taught it, got caught up with it when the other boys (Scout Rank) taught them.  I have one TF scout, 3 Scout scouts and 2 still struggling to get off the ground.  Neither the PL nor the APL is the TF scout.

 

They are never too young to learn and they are never too young to lead.  Just give them the chance.

Why do you think that it fails?  It actually works out quite well.  This works for our troop, come visit us on a campout sometime.

[mashmaster]

I should also mention that the troop has been around and thriving for 27 years, with a high level of leadership throughout the district, council, and area.  Including head venturer for the area and several philmont rangers.  So clearly we are a failure to scouts because we need to run the troop only in the way that you deem fit.  I will stick with our methods that have been proven to be sucessful by just about any standard other than yours.

[TAHAWK]

Why do you think that it fails?  It actually works out quite well.  This works for our troop, come visit us on a campout sometime.

We train Scouts in NYLT.  They go back full of excitement, only to be told "That's not how we (the adults have determined) do it here."

 

So how do you find the NSP method that you use working developing Patrol Leaders?  Sounds like it must work.

[mashmaster]

We train Scouts in NYLT.  They go back full of excitement, only to be told "That's not how we (the adults have determined) do it here."

 

So how do you find the NSP method that you use working developing Patrol Leaders?  Sounds like it must work.

They are all involved in all aspects of the planning of the patrol activities, menu planning....  There always tends to be a couple of scouts that are more vocal and leaders without the title and tend to run for patrol leader pretty quickly.  Since they operate more communal at first they all feel ownership and learn together.  It seems to work as they learn the basics and confidence to be more traditional after the first bit.  The keys IMHO are summer camp attendance, making sure the TG demonstrates a technique not does it for them.