Closed Unit

[Stosh]

Sorry  - I still do not see the conflict

 

 Let me take a stab at this.  The "school" (CO) sets certain standards for it's members.  Public chools allow atheists, scout units do not.  So there's just one of many conflicts that bump together and makes it impossible for a public school to charter a unit.  Private schools do not need to meet federal membership laws and so that wouldn't apply to this issue.  This is why we have Catholic, Lutheran, and other parochial schools with scout units.

 

Even when the "school" unit was defined, in most cases the CO was not the school but a parent group that held the charter.  The PTA/PTO or some other school/community based organization.

 

As far as the access to facilities is concerned, if a school is open to Miss Molly's Sewing Club, they cannot be prejudicial in their acceptance of other groups using the facilities.  So the scouts can use the facilities just as Miss Molly's Sewing Club and the KKK and the NAACP, BLM, church groups and individuals.

 

I hope this helps explain that Chartering a unit and providing facilities are really apples and oranges.  I really don't think there are any public schools out there that are chartering units.  Does anyone know?

[NJCubScouter]

Oh no, are Stosh and I agreeing with each other again?  Can someone please check to make sure the Earth has not fallen off its axis?  I would hate to suddenly go shooting off into space or something, at least not without being prepared.

[DuctTape]

Charter schools will claim to be public schools when it suits them, and private when it suits them. Usually they claim to be public in the media, and claim to be private in court.

[perdidochas]

Can a Troop or Pack be a closed Unit?  As in the Pack/Troop is limited to Scouts from the School who is the Chartering Organization?

 

A School wants Scouting programs but is concerned about youth who are not students of that school using School facilities, benefiting from School support etc.  This is not just a financial concern but also security and legal.  The units would meet at School after hours on school grounds where everyone must have a school ID or get a guest pass from the office. 

 

My reading of everything I could find is that this is within the Chartering Organization discretion.

 

 

Thoughts or Experience?

Yes, the COR has to approve every member of the Pack/Troop from the Tiger cubs to the Cubmaster/Scoutmaster. 

[SSScout]

Here is where the BSA has been trying to have it's cake and have a snack too. 

 

Scout Packs, Scout Troops, Venture Crews  all are of one type of Charter .  Learning For Life are NOT considered "Scout" units and have a different program, which specifically does not dis-include anyone.  No requirements other than attending the fun stuff, after school stuff.  

Are we perhaps discussing LFL  units? 

 

My understanding is that since no governmental organization (military bases, schools, testing labs, embassies, etc.) can exclude anyone from it's activities for religious, gender, or other reason, BSA will not charter a Scout unit to that entity.    Hence the creation of Learning For Life.    

 

Any responsible organization can charter a Scout unit:  hardware store, PTA, Lions Club, church, Volunteer Fire company,  "Friends of Troop QPX",  Knights of Columbus,  Hospital Foundation,  Sierra Club,  almost any group wanting to help  kids camping....

[Sentinel947]

If the CO is a public school, meaning the school itself or the board of education, rather than a separate organization AT the school such as a PTA or PTO, I would think there is a problem with it being a CO at all.  Not mentioning the name of any long-time poster who might be interested in this subject, if he's still checking this forum.

It has been awfully quiet on that front hasn't it?

[NJCubScouter]

It has been awfully quiet on that front hasn't it?

 

Heh heh.  I wasn't being too subtle, was I?  

[David CO]

SSScout included the Knights of Columbus in his list of groups who can charter scout units.

 

Not the Knights of Columbus.  The Catholic Church has instructed the KC's to not charter scout units anymore.

Edited February 8, 2017 by David CO

[NJCubScouter]

Moderator's Note:  I think ghjim has raised an important topic, which deserves its own discussion, and I was thinking of responding, mainly because I don't think some of the responses address some new developments in the area, mainly the new "duty to God" advancement requirement.  However, it is not really on-topic with CO's limiting their membership, which is also an important subject.  Therefore, I am thinking of splitting off posts #21 through #25 into a separate topic, which I would have to figure out a good title for.  Unless anyone has any strong objections.  The new thread would still be in Issues and Politics.  It would not include the last three posts before this one, which are part of the original topic relating to CO's (although somewhat loosely, in the case of Sentinel's and my latest posts.)

 

Update:  I am going to do this now (approx. 3 pm Eastern time) before this thread gets even more tangled up.  I am going to leave this post here to explain what happened to the posts that are moving.  They will be under the title "Religious groups and individual beliefs" unless I think of a better one in the next few seconds.

Edited February 8, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[perdidochas]

SSScout included the Knights of Columbus in his list of groups who can charter scout units.

 

Not the Knights of Columbus.  The Catholic Church has instructed the KC's to not charter scout units anymore.

 

Yes, the Catholic Church prefers that parishes charter scout units. 

[SSScout]

Thank you, perdidochas and David CO.   Good to have up to date info.  I did know of K of C's in this area that did In the past....  Wonder why that is, tho? 

[fred johnson]

I am looking for more of the BSA position.  We are trying to add units at public schools, actually public charter schools.  Their position or question is how or why would this be any different than the school football team (softball, volleyball, etc), band, chess club etc?

 

I think your analogy is correct.  Schools could use the same boudary just like with their football, softball or other teams.  

 

Note ... This is a different discussion than religious boundaries or other membership tests.  

 

A school as a charter org would be within it's rights to say only students that attend their school can join their pack/troop.

Edited February 9, 2017 by fred johnson

[Chisos]

Thank you, perdidochas and David CO.   Good to have up to date info.  I did know of K of C's in this area that did In the past....  Wonder why that is, tho? 

 

The idea was to keep the Parish as the "focal point" of its various groups and provide better coordination of various youth groups under the supervision of the parish pastor.  Most KC councils belong to a specific parish, so the charters should have just been transferred at recharter time.

[gumbymaster]

Getting back to the original question, my understanding is in alignment with Fred's.

 

A Closed unit may select "additional" criteria which must be satisfied by it's membership (i.e. member of x church, resident of the sponsoring HOA, etc.).  It is up to the BSA and the Chartering Org to determine what additional criteria are allowed or not (i.e exclusion based on race is probably not permitted) prior to the BSA (well local council) issuing a charter.

 

As most of the rest of this discussion seems to wrap around, a closed unit may not change the other mandatory BSA membership requirements.

 

As for a Charter School sponsoring?  It may vary state to state, but my belief is that if the charter school has a separate and distinct tax-id from that of the School District, then it is a separate legal entity (corporation, partnership, etc.), and may enter into any additionally permitted business operations - so that in addition to running the charter school, they would be able to sponsor a scout unit.

 

The best way to describe this is that the charter school corporation is then using it's "profits" to provide a charitable contribution in sponsoring the Scout unit.  Even a non-profit charter school could do this as the non-profit status does not mean not making money, it means that any excess funds are used for public good and not to enrich shareholders.

 

The last issue then is the facility itself.  If the Charter school (corporation) owns/leases it's own facilities, then it would be free to use those facilities as it sees fit (per the lease agreement if any).  If the charter organization is getting "rent-free" use of the pubic school facilities (i.e. maybe running a school in a school or similar), then the issue becomes a little more complex.

 

If the (public school) facility allows other groups to use the facilities, then those same rules would probably govern the charter school sponsored unit's use of those facilities.

Edited February 9, 2017 by gumbymaster

[SSScout]

Gumby:  I think you have most of the understanding here.  

 A Charter School around here is a privately established school that is essentially "licensed" by the public school district/department to operate. Any ordinarily acceptable student may attend there, but the curriculum is somehow adjusted.  More tutilege, more concentration on a particular subject, they wear a "uniform", their staff is hired by the Charter school not the PSD , something sets it apart from the "average" public school. But  They do get public school funds.  They may raise other funds, too, but it is publicly supported, primarily.

 

A totally private school depends on NO public. government funds.

 

Since the Charter School is , technically, NOT a government run school ,( as you say, a separate tax ID?)  they could, I think , charter a Scout unit.   Learning for Life units are specifically, so I understand, intended for those public school situations, with unlimited acceptance.