Boys and Girls (Co-Ed) Cub and Boy Scouts Are Coming

[qwazse]

But the program would not be Boy Scouts of America. Boys earning BSA Eagle would not be the same as the boys and girls earning the SA Eagle. Might as well call it the YMCA Eagle or the Boy's and Girl's Club Eagle. Just sell the program to everyone, rake in the money and everyone is happy. After all Eagle is Eagle.... right?!!

I suppose you're right ... what someone does should always be eclipsed by their station.

Edited March 26, 2017 by qwazse

[4CouncilsScouter]

I think a co-ed Boy Scouts of America has been coming down the pipe for a while now. When Exploring became co-ed in the early 70s, there was a lot of controversy about the BSA leaving its roots and not serving its mission. But, 40 years down the line, we're still kicking and the BSA hasn't folded.

 

From what I've observed,The BSA is slowly drifting towards aligning itself with other members of WOSM. Right now, I believe its less than a dozen national Scouting organizations (NSO) have an out-right ban on homosexual orientation, so there's an example there. Another case, the Scout Association (United Kingdom) went partially co-ed in 1976 and fully co-ed in 1991. I know they took a hit in membership in the decades after, but, hey, who hasn't?

 

The way I foresee the BSA going is:

1. Development of Cub Scouting into a co-ed program. However, I suspect dens will be organized by gender were appropriate.
2. Development of Boy Scout into a co-ed program. Similar to Cub Scouts, I would think patrols would try to be separated by gender as much as possible. Possibly, Boy Scouting becomes just Scouting or another more broader name.
3. Venturing, Sea Scouting, and Exploring become more intertwined. I know currently there are councils with Venturing/Exploring districts and Exploring/Venturing Officers' Associations. Additionally, I was talking to a national committee member in my council the other day, and it sounds like this meshing has already been discussed at-least.

In the end, I trust the BSA to do what it thinks best to accomplish its congressionally-charted mission.

 

My $0.02.

Edited March 28, 2017 by 4CouncilsScouter

[Back Pack]

You mean like the part of the charter that says it's for BOYS?

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

[Rick_in_CA]

Boys earning BSA Eagle would not be the same as the boys and girls earning the SA Eagle.

I'm not sure what you are saying here? That if girls could earn Eagle, it would somehow diminish it for the boys?

[Stosh]

You mean like the part of the charter that says it's for BOYS?

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

The congressional charter for Girl Scouts says the same thing for GIRLS.  They have been more true to their charter than the BSA has.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying here? That if girls could earn Eagle, it would somehow diminish it for the boys?

 

It wouldn't diminish anything other than the BOY Scout Eagle wouldn't be a BOY Scout rank.  It would be a Co-ed Scout Eagle.  If Ford Motor Company started making Chevrolet Silverados would the die-hard Chevy customer buy one?  It's the same thing, right?

[qwazse]

The congressional charter for Girl Scouts says the same thing for GIRLS.  They have been more true to their charter than the BSA has.

 

 

It wouldn't diminish anything other than the BOY Scout Eagle wouldn't be a BOY Scout rank.  It would be a Co-ed Scout Eagle.  If Ford Motor Company started making Chevrolet Silverados would the die-hard Chevy customer buy one?  It's the same thing, right?

Nobody's stopping Chevy owners from buying Silverados. Any Chevy owner can proudly own a Silverado as long as he tips his mechanic to be on call 24/7 because, after all, it's still a Ford .

 

It's no less an award designed for boys if we permitted the the occasional female (or adult leader) to earn it, because after all, it's produced by the Boy Scouts of America.

 

The real question still boils down to: will we in the US serve more boys (or the same number of boys, only better) by catering to special interests? All evidence to date suggests the opposite.

[4CouncilsScouter]

I reached out to my council's attorney, who also moonlights at a local university for tort (contract) law, and this is the response I got:

 

Evening ,

In response to your question concerning the Boy Scouts of America Congressional Charter, specifically our purpose/mission as dictated by said document, I have prepared this overview for you.

• "The purposes of the ...[boy Scouts of America]... are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."
• Even though the practice of granting Congressional charters is discontinued, previously granted charters are still binding in whatsoever requirements are mandated for the chartered organization to fulfill. In our case, this includes, but is not limited to, delivering a program to accomplish our "purposes" and delivering an annual report annually no later than April 1 to Congress.
• Outside of this, the actual Congressional charter is intentionally vague so as to allow the BSA to grow and adapt as the nation's landscape and culture changes. One example, the integration of co-ed programs such as Venturing, Sea Scouting, Exploring, and STEM Scouts.
• Changes like this does not invalidate or nullify our Congressional charter, as we still deliver a Scouting program for male youth in the United States.

Thank you for your interest in this topic, as this area of law that is a personal interest. I hope this helped answer your question, and please reach-out to me if you have any further questions or need clarification.

Respectfully,

Edited March 29, 2017 by 4CouncilsScouter

[Col. Flagg]

Lawyers: The people who brought you a third gender.   

[ParkMan]

I read this as "if the BSA wants to make Scouting co-ed, it could."  I think that's the reality anyways.  Perhaps a lawyer or two might have to get involved, but if the BSA decided to go co-ed, it clearly could make it happen.

[ianwilkins]

It wouldn't diminish anything other than the BOY Scout Eagle wouldn't be a BOY Scout rank.  It would be a Co-ed Scout Eagle.  If Ford Motor Company started making Chevrolet Silverados would the die-hard Chevy customer buy one?  It's the same thing, right?

 

That's a yes then. And die hard chevy owners will sneer at the inferior ford chevvies. At least, that's what happened when BMW brought out the new "Mini" in Europe.

[David CO]

I reached out to my council's attorney, who also moonlights at a local university for tort (contract) law, and this is the response I got:

 

Evening             ,

 

In response to your question concerning the Boy Scouts of America Congressional Charter, specifically our purpose/mission as dictated by said document, I have prepared this overview for you.

1. "The purposes of the ...[boy Scouts of America]... are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."
2. Even though the practice of granting Congressional charters is discontinued, previously granted charters are still binding in whatsoever requirements are mandated for the chartered organization to fulfill. In our case, this includes, but is not limited to, delivering a program to accomplish our "purposes" and delivering annual report annually no later than April 1 to Congress.
3. Outside of this, the actual Congressional charter is intentionally vague so as to allow the BSA to grow and adapt as the nation's landscape and culture changes. One example, the integration of co-ed programs such as Venturing, Sea Scouting, Exploring, and STEM Scouts.
4. Changes like this does not invalidate or nullify our Congressional charter, as we still deliver a Scouting program for male youth in the United States.

Thank you for your interest in this topic, as this area of law is a personal interest. I hope this helped answer your question, and please reach-out to me if you have any further questions or need clarification.

 

Respectfully,

 

                       

 

What did you expect to hear from the council lawyer?  Did you think he would admit that they are violating the charter?

[4CouncilsScouter]

What did you expect to hear from the council lawyer?  Did you think he would admit that they are violating the charter?

 

I wasn't really looking him to admit guilt or find fault. More so, it confirms the validity of the BSA's current (and potential) co-ed programs. As long as the BSA can justify their work is to the benefit of American, male youth, they will have fulfilled their Congressional charter.

 

Heck, the BSA could incorporate an investment company or construction firm if they felt it was to the benefit of the youth we serve.

 

However, I still believe the BSA will ensure its younger-age programs have the ability to be co-ed units with single-gender dens/patrols. This will allow boys and girls, who develop at different rates, to mature in a more conducive setting. Once a youth becomes high-school aged, the need to be able to interact with both genders becomes more critical for future success, so this is where a completely co-ed unit (crew, ship, post, or lab) can encourage that type of skill growth.

 

My $0.02.

[David CO]

No. The council lawyers statement doesn't confirm the validity of anything.  It is just a self-serving statement from the council.  It doesn't mean anything.

[NJCubScouter]

I reached out to my council's attorney, who also moonlights at a local university for tort (contract) law, and this is the response I got:...

 

Other than your implication that "tort law" means "contract law", when in fact "tort law" means "NOT contract law", I agree with your council's attorney's opinion.  Courts generally interpret "purpose" clauses in corporate charters broadly.

 

(Not to belabor the tort/contract point, but if someone hits you with their car while driving in a careless manner, or allows an unsafe condition to exist on their business property and a customer slips and falls, or someone punches you in the arm without justification, etc. etc., those are torts.  If a dispute involves a contract, it is generally not a tort, although there are some legal claims that are hybrids of the two.  This post does not constitute legal advice.)

[NJCubScouter]

I read this as "if the BSA wants to make Scouting co-ed, it could."  I think that's the reality anyways.  Perhaps a lawyer or two might have to get involved, but if the BSA decided to go co-ed, it clearly could make it happen.

It could. This really isn't a legal issue. It's a what's-best-for-the-organization issue, or if you prefer, a what's-best-for-the-current-members issue, or both.