Boys and Girls (Co-Ed) Cub and Boy Scouts Are Coming

[qwazse]

....  But it's not some sinister plot to destroy the program.

At the Cub level, that may be.

 

With older age groups, BSA has hyped the advancement method to the point that more than one or two Boy Scouts have told their Venturer sisters that their Silver (now Summit) or Quartermaster or Ranger or GS Gold means nothing compared to their Eagle (should either group earn it). This in spite of SM's and Advisors trying their darnedest to promote both equally.

 

Now the Quartermasters and Rangers in our midst aren't about to be bothered by some runt poking the bear. But, I suspect that rhetoric gets under the skin of potential Silver awardees. So, I can see why "because we can" is as good an excuse as any for the girls who've been slighted this way to become a special interest.

 

Fortunately, this is not a pervasive attitude among Boy Scouts. But the NESA marketing is enough to make target audiences gloat and unintended audiences salivate.

[NJCubScouter]

At the Cub level, that may be.

 

With older age groups, BSA has hyped the advancement method to the point that more than one or two Boy Scouts have told their Venturer sisters that their Silver (now Summit) or Quartermaster or Ranger or GS Gold means nothing compared to their Eagle (should either group earn it). This in spite of SM's and Advisors trying their darnedest to promote both equally.

 

Now the Quartermasters and Rangers in our midst aren't about to be bothered by some runt poking the bear. But, I suspect that rhetoric gets under the skin of potential Silver awardees. So, I can see why "because we can" is as good an excuse as any for the girls who've been slighted this way to become a special interest.

 

Fortunately, this is not a pervasive attitude among Boy Scouts. But the NESA marketing is enough to make target audiences gloat and unintended audiences salivate.

 

Maybe it's just me but I think these are two different issues.  I think it's best if Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are for boys and Girl Scouts are for girls.  But I don't see anything wrong with coming up with a way for girls to earn Eagle.   If boys in a Venture crew can earn Star, Life and Eagle, someone can figure out a context in which the girls can earn Scout through First Class and then do Star, Life and Eagle in the crew.  Without making either Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts coed.  Where's the harm in that?

[Stosh]

Unfortunately at the point girls are allowed to earn the once illustrious Boy Scout Eagle, it will become the Scout Eagle.  Sure the requirements will be the same, the providing organization will be the same, but the award will be issued as a different program, a co-ed program.  Boy Scouts will no longer exist.

[NJCubScouter]

Unfortunately at the point girls are allowed to earn the once illustrious Boy Scout Eagle, it will become the Scout Eagle.  Sure the requirements will be the same, the providing organization will be the same, but the award will be issued as a different program, a co-ed program.  Boy Scouts will no longer exist.

If it is done the way I am suggesting, sure the Boy Scouts will still exist, and it will still be all boys.

 

As for Eagle being issued in a different program, a coed program, it already is. You do not need to be a Boy Scout to earn Star, Life or Eagle, you can be a member of a coed Venture crew. But only one of the two genders in the crew can earn Eagle. It doesn't have to be that way.

[qwazse]

NJ, the problem with your idea is that most venturers want to be different. There has never been a groundswell to earn Eagle among members who weren't already Boy Scouts. So making the award attainable by the few venturers who fulfill those requirements caters to special interests at the expense of the vast majority of Venturers who don't want a program bogged down by micromanaged rank advancement.

Edited March 24, 2017 by qwazse

[ParkMan]

Why not just have the BSA start a Girl Scout division that follows the same program as the Boy Scouts? Then girls could earn the same badges as the boys - including Eagle.

[NJCubScouter]

NJ, the problem with your idea is that most venturers want to be different. There has never been a groundswell to earn Eagle among members who weren't already Boy Scouts. So making the award attainable by the few venturers who fulfill those requirements caters to special interests at the expense of the vast majority of Venturers who don't want a program bogged down by micromanaged rank advancement.

 

As I have said, this does not have to be done in a Venture crew.  I was just using Venturing as an example because the rules do provide that a crew member who has earned First Class in a troop may proceed to earn the rest of the ranks in a crew.  The BSA would just have to figure out where and how someone who has not been a Boy Scout can earn the ranks through First Class, or maybe a separate program where they can go all the way from Scout through Eagle.

 

Or not.  It's like the other "membership changes", if one is committed to keeping things exactly the way they are, all kinds of roadblocks appear in front of a proposed change.  With the "gay issue" it was who tents with who, what happens if the troop at the next site at the district camporee has a gay leader, etc. etc.  After the change was made, we haven't heard of any of these issues actually being a big problem, and I think if they had been, we would have heard about it.  If people want to make something work, they can make it work, and if they want to make it not work, they can make it not work.  

[Peregrinator]

Why not just have the BSA start a Girl Scout division that follows the same program as the Boy Scouts? Then girls could earn the same badges as the boys - including Eagle.

That won't be enough for the people who believe co-education is the be-all and end-all.

[fred johnson]

But only one of the two genders in the crew can earn Eagle. It doesn't have to be that way.

 

Yeah, that does not seem fair.  Plus then the crew adviser works with one gender more than the other because of an award that only that gender can earn?  Structurally that's just wrong.  It divides the crew membership.  

[ParkMan]

That won't be enough for the people who believe co-education is the be-all and end-all.

But it would remove one of the most compelling arguments - the inability of girls to access the program.

[MattR]

Why not just one scouting program from 11-21 and let the CO have some flexibility to create what they want? Do you want to limit the age above 14 or below 18? Boys only? Girls only? Coed? LDS only? Eagle has to be completed by 18 but if you want to stop at First Class, go for it. All of this micro managing of the program does not help.

 

Train them, trust them, let them be may just as well apply to the units as it does to scouts.

 

A troop with 11 - 21 year olds is an intriguing idea. There would have to be adventure. There would have to be strong patrols that do their own thing. Eagle would be less of the focus.

[Col. Flagg]

Yeah, that does not seem fair.  Plus then the crew adviser works with one gender more than the other because of an award that only that gender can earn?  Structurally that's just wrong.  It divides the crew membership.  

 

Depends. I hear that 2% or less of crews actually use the ranks advancement program in Venturing. However, looking at the program it is, in my opinion, in many ways superior (minus the lack of core outdoor skills) to Boy Scouts. The project planning and management requirements are impressive. It reminds me of what it was like being an SPL and JASM as a kid. If they could fold in some outdoor skills focus I'm not sure I would be in Boy Scouts.

[Peregrinator]

But it would remove one of the most compelling arguments - the inability of girls to access the program.

Then "they" will say that the girls aren't getting the real program because they are not working with and/or competing against the boys, or that the boys have the "better" scoutmasters, etc. The arguments they use now are just a means to an end, they will develop new arguments in order to reach the end they want.

[qwazse]

Depends. I hear that 2% or less of crews actually use the ranks advancement program in Venturing. However, looking at the program it is, in my opinion, in many ways superior (minus the lack of core outdoor skills) to Boy Scouts. The project planning and management requirements are impressive. It reminds me of what it was like being an SPL and JASM as a kid. If they could fold in some outdoor skills focus I'm not sure I would be in Boy Scouts.

It's actually 2% of venturers in general. A lot of crews, like mine, find about one in forty youth are interested in bling other than their Eagle or Gold award (in their BS or GS troop, respectively). Then.you get every 40th crew that's all about everyone earning one award or another.

In a sense, this was how Boy Scouts was when I was a youth regarding upper ranks. Troops could go for years without anyone earning Eagle, then one scout would "crack the code" and make rank, and the rest of the troop would follow.

 

The challenge for me, as an advisor, is I'm all about the outdoor activity, but the crew doesn't need to be that. I can drop in any troop and anywhere and pretty much know what to do. I'm not always sure if what I have to offer is what any given generation of leaders in my crew wants to pursue ... That's what makes it interesting.

 

So a piece of me may be finding solace that through venturing I don't have parents shedding tears over their little girl not making it rank. It's nice having a cluster of youth who want scouting skills for scouting's sake.

[Stosh]

Why not just one scouting program from 11-21 and let the CO have some flexibility to create what they want? Do you want to limit the age above 14 or below 18? Boys only? Girls only? Coed? LDS only? Eagle has to be completed by 18 but if you want to stop at First Class, go for it. All of this micro managing of the program does not help.

 

Train them, trust them, let them be may just as well apply to the units as it does to scouts.

 

A troop with 11 - 21 year olds is an intriguing idea. There would have to be adventure. There would have to be strong patrols that do their own thing. Eagle would be less of the focus.

 

But the program would not be Boy Scouts of America.  Boys earning BSA Eagle would not be the same as the boys and girls earning the SA Eagle.  Might as well call it the YMCA Eagle or the Boy's and Girl's Club Eagle.  Just sell the program to everyone, rake in the money and everyone is happy.  After all Eagle is Eagle.... right?!!