Affraid son is loosing interest already, and I am discouraged

[Col. Flagg]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but here goes...

 

I think the BSA should drop things from the program that overlap with school activities. Disconnect the program from things that kids already learn in school and focus more on the outdoor adventure component. If Scouting is going to endure as an elective activity that's supposed to be fun compared to school, the program needs to change to truly be that kind of an activity. It really can't be a surprise that so many kids lose interest when the program includes so much academic stuff and repeats of things they are taught in history and social studies classes at school. 

 

And yet which direction does Scouting go? The double down on STEM activities at places like Seabase and Bechtel and Philmont, focusing MORE on the activities that compete with school. I applaud them linking STEM to the outdoors, but I think that's getting lost in the message to the kids.

 

For example, my son met some folks from USGS and the US Forest Service this summer at Philmont. This kids LOVES biology and geology, in addition to being in Scouting and outdoors. When he learned he could spend a summer doing an invasive species census in the meadows and highlands at Philmont, he JUMPED at the chance!!

 

BSA needs to do more of that: Build STEM that can be done outdoors and show the linkages to how this helps them learn and, eventually, go on a college resume (our build a skill for your future).

[EmberMike]

The double down on STEM activities at places like Seabase and Bechtel and Philmont, focusing MORE on the activities that compete with school. I applaud them linking STEM to the outdoors, but I think that's getting lost in the message to the kids.

 

I agree. I've always liked that they try to bring some of these new elements into Scouting and always tie them to the traditional activities and program, but it's highly ambitious to do this stuff with the intention being that the kids make the connection. 

 

The one thing I've always heard over the years from people talking about Scouting is that they'd like to see more adventure (of course with "adventure" having a different meaning depending on who you talk to). But generally speaking, getting outside and doing exciting things more often. 

 

My viewpoint has been lately that there is plenty of opportunity for adventure and excitement, but it always competes with the book-learning stuff. I kind of hate to see kids sitting in a dining hall talking to a MB counselor about citizenship reqs when the woods are right outside. 

[MattR]

blw2, just my 2 cents but here's another view of you being part of the solution. Rather than being confrontational how about going to the SM and saying, just like you've told us, "I'm worried about my son and the scouts in that patrol. They don't want to go to summer camp. Because of this my son is losing interest. Would it be okay if I talked to the scouts and the parents to find out what's going on? Can you give me any advice on how to talk to them? Is there a way the troop does this sort of thing?" Don't quote chapter and verse about patrol method, boy led. Just talk about what you see with your son. If someone asked me if they could find out what's going on with a patrol that's having problems I'd be very happy and encourage them. New scouts need to be making friendships if they're going to last. If the SM blows you off then, I have nothing for you. But likely it will be better than that. Talk to the parents, maybe they see similar issues. If you can get the scouts together then finding out what they really enjoy and really get bored with can start a good conversation.

 

I hope you can find a way for your son to make friends and keep having fun in scouts.

 

Good luck.

[TAHAWK]

"Moving to another troop was mentioned earlier. I think that's just a temporary fix. It's a change of scene, but the program is still the same. Interest will still wane eventually. "

 

This is only true of the other troops has an equally weak program.  In my experience, troops are not the same.  There is an entire range from wonderful to awful in the area where I Scout.  Of course, practical problems may overcome attended a good troop.

 

Wood Badge does not teach the Patrol Method.  It "models" the method, which works best for those who already know what the method is - a decided minority since BSA has not coherently taught the method in any official syllabus in decades and often publishes statements or practices that are directly contrary or implicitly contrary to the method (See "Journey to 'Excellence'.") . That is, Wood Badge uses the DGE teaching method, omitting "explain" for people who, largely, do not have much of a clue.  As a result, and as you say, Wood Badge is sadly not even close to the answer for returning to Boy Scouting form the "troop method." That is really too bad given what could be accomplished.

 

OP, how about starting a separate Boy Scout Patrol?  BSA will require you to register it as a "troop," but Boy Scouting started out a independent patrols, something BSA allowed for into the 1960's - chartered "Neighborhood Patrols."
 

[ParkMan]

In my neck of the woods, Troops are very different. If my son's troop had a weak program, I would have no problems moving to another troop. I think a lot of scouts would benefit from moving troops after the first year.

 

In your case, I won recommend finding a role that could bring about some of the changes you'd like to see. Show others your ideas working and it's easier to get others to go along.

 

I'm the CC of a troop of about 70 boys. Our use of patrols is poor. I get lots of people willing me things are broken and how to fix it. The reality is that if I knew how to fix it, I would have already.

 

I wouldn't sweat that you are newer. You don't need to be the SM, takingon a smaller role where you could impact things is a big part of starring the process of change.

[blw2]

blw2, just my 2 cents but here's another view of you being part of the solution. Rather than being confrontational how about going to the SM and saying, just like you've told us, "I'm worried about my son and the scouts in that patrol. They don't want to go to summer camp. Because of this my son is losing interest. Would it be okay if I talked to the scouts and the parents to find out what's going on? Can you give me any advice on how to talk to them? Is there a way the troop does this sort of thing?" Don't quote chapter and verse about patrol method, boy led. Just talk about what you see with your son. If someone asked me if they could find out what's going on with a patrol that's having problems I'd be very happy and encourage them. New scouts need to be making friendships if they're going to last. If the SM blows you off then, I have nothing for you. But likely it will be better than that. Talk to the parents, maybe they see similar issues. If you can get the scouts together then finding out what they really enjoy and really get bored with can start a good conversation.

 

I hope you can find a way for your son to make friends and keep having fun in scouts.

 

Good luck.

this seems like a great twist to the way of looking at it and approaching the issue.  Exactly the sort of thing I struggle with sometimes, coming up with these flip-flops on the fly....  I'll keep this in mind and see if I can find a way to work that in...

 

"Moving to another troop was mentioned earlier. I think that's just a temporary fix. It's a change of scene, but the program is still the same. Interest will still wane eventually. "

 

This is only true of the other troops has an equally weak program.  In my experience, troops are not the same.  There is an entire range from wonderful to awful in the area where I Scout.  Of course, practical problems may overcome attended a good troop.

 

Wood Badge does not teach the Patrol Method.  It "models" the method, which works best for those who already know what the method is - a decided minority since BSA has not coherently taught the method in any official syllabus in decades and often publishes statements or practices that are directly contrary or implicitly contrary to the method (See "Journey to 'Excellence'.") . That is, Wood Badge uses the DGE teaching method, omitting "explain" for people who, largely, do not have much of a clue.  As a result, and as you say, Wood Badge is sadly not even close to the answer for returning to Boy Scouting form the "troop method." That is really too bad given what could be accomplished.

 

OP, how about starting a separate Boy Scout Patrol?  BSA will require you to register it as a "troop," but Boy Scouting started out a independent patrols, something BSA allowed for into the 1960's - chartered "Neighborhood Patrols."

 

I actually love the idea.  A neighborhood Patrol really does strike me as something a bit more natural in a way.  In our case, our troop is really more like a community or small city in geographic area.  Scouts going to several different schools and not living at all close to one another.  Not really conducive to how it once was....

 

I just started reading "Rocks in My Backpack".  Was chuckling about some of teh stories he told about being a young scout in 1940's Wisconsin.  Riding bikes to and from troop meetings, getting into mischief with his buddies on the way home form the troop meeting, and so on.  That sort of stuff aint happening for our scouts!

[Stosh]

Growing up during the "adolescent" years is always a struggle.  Boys of this age are pushing the envelop, developing more mature relationships, seeking a higher level of adventure.  To put this in adult-speak, they are more rebellious, hang out with the wrong crowd and get into trouble. 

 

My wife, my kids, and a lot of people around me keep telling me I need to grow up, but it's only because I can still see the world from the viewpoint of a youngster. 

 

One's child looses interest for a lot of reasons, most of them are misdiagnosed by adults.  They blame the fumes, work, etc. a whole bunch of stuff, but NEVER, EVER do they blame themselves!

 

Pushing the envelop? - How many adults still treat them like children?  Yep, they don't trust them because they are going to do something really stupid.... YES THEY WILL, but scouting should be the safe place to do that!!!  It's call boy leadership and the patrol method community in which to operate.  Adults stifle that at every opportunity in an adult directed troop.

 

Developing mature relationships? - Yes, people of this age gang up in groups for tribal protection.  This has been going on for thousands and thousands of years.  This is nothing new, but for some reason adults today say so.  It's a myth!  The esprit-de-corps develop in a patrol can be just as strong as the bonding of brotherhood in the military in the similar years of growth.  The boys will hang with a gang, why not allow it in scouting instead of the neighborhood streets.

 

Seeking greater adventure?  - So, other than advanced babysitting, what is the BSA providing these boys when it comes to adventure?  Nil? Nada? Zilch? Nothing?  Yep.  But we offer Philmont, Bechtel, Sea Base, Northern Tier!  But did anyone ever stop and ask if that's what the boys want?  What if they think the greatest adventure is a weekend away at the local scout camp with NO adults, PERIOD.  We'll call when we're ready to come home.  It'll never happen in the BSA and.... and..... and get this!  They will be in major trouble if they ever try something like this on their own!!!  OMG!  Now wouldn't that be a great adventure!

 

It's time everyone stops wracking their brains asking what it's going to take to keep these boys in scouting and simply go and ask them!  They already know the answers.

[qwazse]

So I got home too late to make it to crew meeting. I'm unpacking, and here come three of my crew at 9PM. The older one was driving the two younger ones who were making a quick visit to a friend's house. The take a moment to say hello before running an errand.

 

I can easily envision if I am not challenging these boys to do something with their free time under the Venturing flag, they will do something on their own. It's only a matter of who gives them the loudest "you cant do ...".

[walk in the woods]

So I'll be the heretic again and ask the simple question, "So what?"  

 

It's great that you're deeply involved with the unit and want to see changes to make it more boy-led.  I applaud your work in reading and thinking about scouting.  I think it's great you didn't go into the committee as a ramrod and you are considering the impact to everybody involved.  You've gotten a lot of good advice about how to talk with your son, his patrol, his troop leadership.  And plenty of options from finding a new troop to building a neighborhood patrol.  You should pursue all of them, right after you pursue whether your son is losing interest because he's just not into scouting.  There's no shame in that.    

 

Full disclosure, I worked hard to keep my son in scouting, but ultimately he left his Freshman year of high school.  Scouting was good for him, he learned a lot of valuable leadership and personal development skills, and we had some fun experiences along the way (e.g. Jambo, BWCAW, Cold Weather Camping training, etc.).  But, he didn't shine until he found Drama Club in high school.  It was one of the best experiences of my life to watch him take all those lessons he learned in scouting and then refine and expand them in something he was truly passionate about.  

 

If "fixing" the program in your troop is the only thing preventing your son from being passionate about scouting then by all means pursue the fixes.  If he's just not into it, then let him pursue his future on his terms.

[Eagledad]

It's time everyone stops wracking their brains asking what it's going to take to keep these boys in scouting and simply go and ask them!  They already know the answers.

Wow, stosh and I don't agree much on styles of pushing a boy run program, but this post is pretty good.

 

My experience is different with stosh's  last his last point, the boys don't typically know what they want and that is why adults struggle with older scout programs. Typically boys today aren't given enough independence to know what they are missing. Like stosh said, they are searching for an identity which motivates them to push boundaries. But I found their search tends to be varied because they don't really know where they want to go. It's true, the younger a boy is given independence to explore his interests, the sooner he finds himself and finds a direction. But our culture doesn't like young people venturing out very far because it is dangerous. Truth is most young adults today don't get much world experience to find themselves until they graduate high school. That's too late for troop programs.

 

As I said, earlier in the discussion, I found in our troop that only 25% of our older scouts wanted more adventure. Why do we adults keep thinking adventure? I guess it is automatic that when scouters talk about adventure, they usually mean backwoods type adventure. But believe it or not, scouts have done a lot of adventure by age 14 just in camping. More adventure seem like more camping to most older scouts. They aren't looking for adventure, they are looking ways to prove their physical and mental maturity. They are looking for the adult in themselves. That is something very different.

 

Also, I found young adult scouts want is to be respected as adults by adults. It's hard to define adults respecting young adults, what does that really mean? Let's try this; imagine how each of us greet and talk to adult leaders as they enter a troop meeting. Do we greet and talk to the scouts the same? Trust me, it's a lot harder than it sounds. If the adult didn't wear the uniform to a meeting, do you say something? What about the scout? How are the responses to adults late to the meeting compared to the scouts? 

 

We scouting adults are just parents that over the years have been programmed to see youths as empty minds needing experienced instructions to survive. Without even consideration, our brains automatically think of youths as mindless kids who can't get through the day without some kind of adult guidance. As a result, we speak down in a condescending tone to their ignorance of life's experience. Now don't feel bad, just about all adults do it. The more we experience life, the more our maturity builds up our stature as supreme vessels of life's knowledge. Hey, raising kids builds a lot of stature. And that stature demands some respect, you know what I mean. Our parent egos are so pumped in a room of kids, we probably glow in the dark.

 

But we adults aren't bad for holding scouts down as snotty nose kids, we just haven't learned how to equalize ourselves to these young adults. Giving scouts the respect as an adult takes forethought and practice. Lots of practice. We have to practice not giving suggestions as older scouts struggle through their dilemmas. Kind of funny, at first we are proud of ourselves for not saying anything while this scouts are rattling through their issues. But a funny thing happened, they actually came up with a really good idea through all that rattling nonsense. I mean really, their idea was better than I could come up with. I remember that first experience very well. And that wouldn't have happened with the old parent me, but the adult to adult me let nature take it's course and we both grew a little that day.

 

But, confidence is fragile. Our troop developed a Troop JLT that became so popular that other troops were sending their scouts. Our older scouts were so excited that they were coming up with new ideas. One of those idea was some kind of badge or uniform display they could give scouts who graduated the course. They got the idea from the beads of Wood Badge, but they wanted something different. I was standing back enjoying the ideas being passed around when another adult nearby jumped in and took over the discussion. I saw the color of their excitement drain from the scouts in matter seconds. And nothing ever came of the idea. Confidence needs to repeated actions to be reinforced. All the adults need to get on board or it will be a struggle for the program as a whole to step up to the next level of maturity. 

 

I guess my point in all this is that older scouts aren't necessarily looking to tell adults what they really want because most of the time they don't have enough experience to know. We haven't given them enough independence to figure it out.The adults have to push scouts to find themselves in the scout program by letting them experience the program as adults. The younger, the better. I found that scouts learning to initiate pushing their imagination in the scout program is just as hard as it is for the adults to initiate respecting the scouts as adults. But once both the scouts and the adults learn and practice their roles, watch out because the program will take off. The scouts will push the program out of the adults comfort zone, and that is when we adults found out just how serious we were about developing men of character.

 

Barry

[MattR]

I agree that relatively few scouts are looking for more challenging adventures. A lot are looking for recognition by adults as peers, but I wouldn't say all of them are. Many are looking for recognition from their peers. All of them are looking to see where they fit in and if they find something they like that contributes to the unit then they're happy as can be. It could be working with younger scouts or it could be bigger adventures. Some like OA. I have a scout I can't quite figure out and he certainly is looking. Very bright. Very witty. Good heart. He will try new things. But can come across as a smartass. He tried being PL but didn't like it. He had a challenging couple of younger scouts. So it's not that the adults were a problem shooting him down. A whinny 11 year old can do just as much damage to someone that is unsure. Then there are the scouts that just don't really want to be there but mom or dad is making them. I have one or two of those right now. They're not helpful or optimistic. Unfortunately, those scouts, or even those that have other problems, can make it very difficult for scouts that are just trying to figure out where they fit in. It's not like we just need to get out of their way and let them lead. Supporting them is a balancing act.

[Stosh]

I'm not so sure boys of this age are "not looking for adventure."  Maybe the world has changed and today's youth is summed up in the latest version of some video game on the market that they live vicariously in the safety of their parent's basement.  That wasn't the case in years gone by and maybe the world has changed and left BSA holding the bag.  If it has then nothing's going to resurrect it to anything other than a mere shadow of it's former glory.

 

I have always loved the out-of-doors.  I cannot remember the days before my family went camping....every weekend during the summer until I went off to college.  My father sold off his motorhome when he lost his driver's license at age 85.  Even with a background like that I found a poorly run scout troop offers nothing that something else can't do better.  4 years of Cub Scouts, got out as soon as I was old enough and never received the Lion or Webelos awards.  I have no idea whether AOL was even an option.  In Scouts I put in 4 more years and never got past 2nd Class.  As a group en mass my buddies and I all went over to Civil Air Patrol and nothing could beat doing real search and rescue operations.  That was real adventure and the leaders there treated everyone like adults and gave us opportunities to experience things that we never thought possible in scouting.  Never looked back until my son was old enough for Tigers.  He quit at Star rank.

 

Everyone has a story, not everyone ends up with an Eagle and even if they do, they don't offer back to the world around them that simple basic Scouting once provided.  I have volunteered for community groups like starting an ambulance service, 45 years ago my college buddies and I started our local food pantry, I have started a church, I have put in 1500+ hours in the past 6 months for Red Cross, I work with my church youth group on a weekly basis as I do with the Boy Scouts.  Did any of this have to do with the fact that I put 4 years of poor BSA programming in to get 2nd Class been a cause for all this.  Not likely.

 

So, am I so wrapped up in Scouting that this political agenda of National is going to make any difference to me?  Probably not, because I can think of at least 5 or 6 other volunteer opportunities out there that could benefit from my skills.   I have walked away from various positions in Scouting, I have walked away from units, I have never felt that all the political drama generated by certain small-minded people warrant my continued involvement.  I do believe there is something written somewhere that states that if not welcomed, knock the dust from your sandals and move on to a more productive opportunity.

 

I am the advisor for my church's youth group.  It's co-ed.  No problem, worked with such groups all my life.  No political regenderization hassles they have a solid moral code.  The rules are simple and they don't change.  I can go and simply have a great time.  The kids are having the whole congregation next Sunday make Valentine's Day cards (leadership project for the kids) working with adults (adult association) and with the help of another youth group from the same church denomination the next town over, will deliver them to all the residents in the various nursing homes.  Afterwards, pizza and games to socialize.  ALL DESIGNED AND SET UP BY THE YOUTH!  Kinda like a Scout program.  Next month another team (patrol) will be making lap blankets for the congregation's shut-in elderly by working with the ladies sewing group.  The youth are taking the lead on it. 

 

What I am trying to say, the BSA program really works and works fantastic, once the political drama is removed from the picture.

[walk in the woods]

@@Eagledad, you just summarized a sort of pop-culture self-help book I've read recently called "The Power of T.E.D."  

[blw2]

So I'm sorry to say I had to drag my son to his PLC yesterday.  Normally I wouldn't do that, but there were a couple of extenuating circumstances that made me feel it was necessary for him to follow through with his commitment as PL.

I did not attend, and don't normally since I'm MC.  Even though I would be welcomed, I don't feel it's my place... in fact I think adult presence should be minimal if at all there....

But the "funny thing"

after the meeting, son tells me that it started with a long lecture form Mr. SM telling them that they are supposed to be boy lead, that they need to take charge, etc....

then...... when it was time to move on.....wait for it....

Mr. SM begins to tell them all about what it is they are going to do next.... how to do it, etc....

.....and the crux of the meeting seems to have been a dismantling of all current patrols and reorganizing the roster.

        I think I'll start a new thread with my thoughts....

 

but on our way home, I was giving the ASPL a ride.  I was trying my best to keep it conversational and totally neutral.... not sure I was able to do that but I was trying....  Anyway, I asked what was the driver to cause them to want to do this....

The ASPL's answer was it was because the NSP was not advancing.... and my son said, well what if I don't want to advance?  What if I just want to have fun?

[Col. Flagg]

@@blw2, this is where I would have a short chat with the SM and ask him why he does not have that same conversation (the one he gave to the PLC) with his SPL, then let his SPL deliver the news and manage the PLC.

 

It seems to me the SM likes doing what he is doing. He may not feel he's being an SM when he sits on his hands and let's the boys do things.

 

We had a meeting Monday night. Had 10 Webelos visiting, of which we hoped to get maybe 2-3. My job was to meet with the parents while the Webelos attended the meeting. I spent an hour with the parents simply answering their questions. I invited them to go watch the troop do its thing. Nearly every parent was concerned that I was not running the meeting; that the adults were simply either running SMCs or standing around quietly assisting when needed. I reminded them that's how Scouts works. At the end of the meeting all ten wanted to sign up. Their sons insisted and the parents obliged.

 

Any chance your SM can be brought to see the light that is boy-led? Or is he just an existence justification freak?

Edited February 8, 2017 by Col. Flagg