Transgender policy change

[Oldscout448]

Matt Walsh just posted a scathing rebuke to National.  It's on the Blaze if anyone is interested.

[Back Pack]

Having read through this, the crux of the posts are a variation of "SHE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED" (emphasis is mine).

Now, if this is a trensgender boy, having lived as a "boy", identifying as a "boy", acting dressing and playing like a "boy" are you even going to know who this is?

that is the point of this.  Right now we are excluding boys who want to be in Scouts because their birth certificate does not match their gender identity.  Aren't we in this to help the boys be boys. That is what this is allowing, that boy, who happens to have "wrong" genitalia, to be included with his friends in a fun character building program.

Seems that is the Courteous thing to do. Kind, Friendly and Brave apply too.

I wonder where the talk of being Kind, Courteous, Helpful, etc., is when we are trying to maintain the organization for boys that we've always had. Seems those wanting us to change want *us* to exhibit these qualities, but aren't willing to give the. In return...until you've gotten what you want. Very tolerant indeed.

[perdidochas]

Sad, Very sad.  My son and I will be looking into Trail Life USA.  We are being mollycoddled into thinking this is the new normal.  The BSA has failed the boys that it was created to serve.  The transgender paradigm does nothing but service the liberal/progressive agenda that is out to destroy our sons.  The only way the BSA makes this work is by going co-ed like the Venturing model and doing away with Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.

 

Well, per the memo my council (Gulf Coast) sent out, this will still be an issue for COs/Troop committee to decide. If a TC doesn't want a particular person in the Troop, that person is not in the the Troop.  Our troop has turned boys away because we could see they didn't fit in the Troop. 

[perdidochas]

Having read through this, the crux of the posts are a variation of "SHE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED" (emphasis is mine).

Now, if this is a trensgender boy, having lived as a "boy", identifying as a "boy", acting dressing and playing like a "boy" are you even going to know who this is?

that is the point of this.  Right now we are excluding boys who want to be in Scouts because their birth certificate does not match their gender identity.  Aren't we in this to help the boys be boys. That is what this is allowing, that boy, who happens to have "wrong" genitalia, to be included with his friends in a fun character building program.

Seems that is the Courteous thing to do. Kind, Friendly and Brave apply too.

 

The problem is that we are accommodating a mental illness--a delusion that their gender is not the same as their biology.   If we have mentally ill people that think they are George Washington or Superman, we don't allow them to walk around in those costumes.  That said, if I were at a Camporee and met a TG "boy" I would be cordial, and treat her like a boy. 

[Adamcp]

The problem is that we are accommodating a mental illness--a delusion that their gender is not the same as their biology.   If we have mentally ill people that think they are George Washington or Superman, we don't allow them to walk around in those costumes.  That said, if I were at a Camporee and met a TG "boy" I would be cordial, and treat her like a boy. 

Despite the fact that the DSM V lists Gender Dysphoria as a diagnosis, most psychiatrists and psychologists I know do not see being transgender as a mental ilness, and certainly not a delusion. Many think that the diagnosis will not continue to be listed as a mental health diagnosis in future diagnostic manuals.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Adamcp

[ham_solo]

The BSA is just plain ignorant here.  They are letting themselves be dragged into constant LBGT discussions and arguments, and having to  come up with all these stupid rules of this person can be a member, that person can't be etc.. that just makes them look bad.

 

The real solution that the BSA seems determined to ignore at ALL costs of course, even though it is screaming in their face, is to just change to "US Scouts", and allow ALL young people to join, just like every single other scout organization around the world including Robert Baden Powell's original scouts in the UK. 
 
The only scouting organizations left in the world that are boys-only are the BSA, and Saudi Arabia where girls can't even drive or leave the house without a man. 
 
That is what really should change. All these additional rules and arguments are wasting time and focus on silly fringe issues that really only involve 1% or .01% of the population at large, let along the scout population, when a single rule change to allow all young people to join, and be just like every other scouting organization around the world, would end any and all future arguments.

Edited February 1, 2017 by ham_solo

[Adamcp]

I do appreciate the experience that my sons are currently getting to be part of Scouting where they can be with boys and focus on becoming men of character.

 

I don't think that this decision changes that experience presently. This decision affects the BSA the membership opportunity of young people, who I view as boys, because I believe that gender identity is a valid concept and that biological gender can be inconsistent with gender identity. This belief is based upon my experience listening to transgender individuals describe their experiences. The folks I know gladly enjoy life as boys/young men, they do not see masculinity as toxic, and they would pretty seemlessly add to a troop of young men. I imagine that it would be a non-issue over time, if the Scout lived the Oath and Law, and the other Scouts did too.  And I imagine that I could work with the families of any transgender Scouts such that we could be prepared for any "first period" that may happen.  My wife is a nurse, I think she could get me and my ASMs ready!

 

And I agree that the trajectory does suggest that Scouting membership in the BSA will be open to both boys and girls at some point in the future.  I will miss the "Boy" Scouts, if that happens, but I also cannot ignore the comments I have read from international Scouters who seems to fairly consistently say that their Scouts continue to have a pretty rewarding Scouting experience and that the impact of co-ed Scouting has not, in their opinions, been negative.  I do truly take heart in their comments, and remain similarly hopeful.  But this particular decision is not about co-ed Scouting, in my opinion. These are boys who want to join a membership of boys.

[Stosh]

THIS!!  The arrogance in this girl/family makes me want to completely vomit. "I'm going to make them conform to me"  BS!

 

The thing with Trail Life is that it doesn't have the coveted "Eagle Scout" rank that we all look to put on our son's resumes.  

 

With this change, the whole dynamic of the "Eaglel" as something of value will deteriorate as well.  It has already lost some of it's luster and this will only exacerbate the problem.

 

this is from the UK scouting fact sheets if people are worried about someone having a period (having had a kid break a leg on camp, a period would be easy to deal with)

 

 There should be sufficient toilet and washing facilities to ensure the privacy of the young people. Facilities for the disposal of sanitary towels and tampons should be provided, and Leaders should arrange a supply of spares in case of unexpected emergencies. There might be occasions when a girl starts her period on camp, or is caught unexpectedly. Leaders should be prepared to support her discreetly and sensitively, as they would with any personal difficulty that a young person encounters on camp

 

Be Prepared.  otherwise be ready to provide TP to wipe their butts too.  If one is going to view themselves as a boy but not be a boy, that's not my problem, it's something "he" has to deal with.

 

"Courteous" "kind" "friendly" "brave" go out the window when lawsuits are involved. 

 

And before any law suits arise on my horizon I will be long gone.

 

If I have a disruptive ADHD boy in my troop I have the right to have a parent on site to deal with it because it's not part of the BSA program I provide.

 

If I have a handicapped boy in my troop I have the right to have a parent on site to deal with it because it's not part of the BSA program I provide.

 

If I have a TG "boy" in my troop I have the right to have a parent on site to deal with it because it's not part of the BSA program I provide.

 

As a scouter I will do everything possible to accommodate the "boy", but if there is ANY CHANCE i may end up after 45 years of working with youth ending up in court, I will walk away without ever looking back.  It just isn't worth it for BSA to play these PC games and expect the membership to walk the tight-rope without any net.

 

I am not singling out the ADHD boy, his situation is.  I am not singling out the handicapped boy, his situation is.  I am not singling out the TG "boy", "his" situation is.

 

I am not responsible for dealing with these things,   If BSA wants these kids in the program, THEY have to make the adjustments, not me.  National can be ever so politically correct and make fantasticly warm-fuzzy statements to the press, but it's the boots on the ground that get holding the stick.  I am happy with being boots on the ground, but there's no way I'm ever going to hold any stick and responsibility for THEIR decision.

[Snow Owl]

The YPT question is this.  If a girl registers as a boy (for whatever reason), must the scout unit have a female scout leader at the activities?  

 

My guess is the answer is yes.  BSA will see this as a potential liability.  A female scout leader will be required.

 

Since BSA will have no way of knowing if any registered scout is actually a boy or a girl, they will have to require that all Boy Scout activities have a female unit leader.

I don't see that as the next step. We have a female scoutmaster and there is no requirement that a male leader be present.

 

Interesting times. If you listen to the statement you will notice he never says "boy" ever. Not even "Boy Scouts of America". My prediction is that we will have girls registered in Packs and Troops before the end of the year. Units will have the option to be be coed or "traditional"

[Back Pack]

A bit floored. Got a call from two parents tonight. Pulled their kids. They're gone.

 

I guess I'm really not floored. It's to be expected.

[Snow Owl]

An all boy  unit has to have a male present on all campouts. A TG "boy" would not be required to have  a female present, because then it would imply that she was a girl, and she does not want to be treated as one.  My guess is that in the future, Boy Scout Troops will have to have coed leadership present on all campouts.

There is no requirement to have a male adult leader or male adult on campouts.

[Stosh]

A bit floored. Got a call from two parents tonight. Pulled their kids. They're gone.

 

I guess I'm really not floored. It's to be expected.

 

It's not the program they paid for, why would they continue.  This is only the tip of the iceberg.  Boy Scouts of America has today become a bait and switch program.

[dedkad]

It's not the program they paid for, why would they continue.  This is only the tip of the iceberg.  Boy Scouts of America has today become a bait and switch program.

The program we pay for is administered at the local level. The less we let National's politics enter into our every day Scouting activities the better. I can understand someone wanting to make a statement about National's policies, but I doubt these two individuals would EVER be affected by this membership change. How many TG kids do you think there are? Let's get real.

[qwazse]

Regarding the comments on this forum from international scouters (whose invites have prepared me for many opportunities that have come my way as a crew advisor) ... We must understand that there are also a collection of scouters who moved on when their programs went coed, and it took decades for them to rebuild membership.

 

What's different for us in the US is the readiness to litigate.

[David CO]

There is another difference.  We have Chartered Organizations.