Transgender policy change

[ParaSloth]

Good reason to have a necker on hand I suppose.

 

[Eagledad]

Lordy lordy all this period talk! Your giving me the vapors. Seems, in the rare case that would happen, to be another scouting opportunity for improvisation and what not. Good reason to have a necker on hand I suppose.

 

 

Rare! Do you not understand female biology?

 

I wasn't even thinking a long these lines, but TT's post reminded me of a discussion I had with my wife. She had her first period during her first (and last) Girl Scout summer camp. She was very embarrassed and remembers that camp being the worst week of her life. She quit scouts as soon as she got home.

 

And that was at a camp with just girls and women. Imagine that same experience at a BOY Scout camp.

 

She'd kill me if she knew I........

 

Barry

[krypton_son]

Rare! Do you not understand female biology?

 

 

I have to agree.  I'm no gynecologist, but I'm pretty sure that every girl (excuse me, I suppose "boy" in this case) gets one every month.  And it last for a while.  I'd say that that doesn't fall into the rare category.

[perdidochas]

Rare! Do you not understand female biology?

 

I wasn't even thinking a long these lines, but TT's post reminded me of a discussion I had with my wife. She had her first period during her first (and last) Girl Scout summer camp. She was very embarrassed and remembers that camp being the worst week of her life. She quit scouts as soon as she got home.

 

And that was at a camp with just girls and women. Imagine that same experience at a BOY Scout camp.

 

She'd kill me if she knew I........

 

Barry

The rare event, I presume, would be first period.

[Eagledad]

The rare event, I presume, would be first period.

Only once.

 

Barry

[SSScout]

13 year old Daughter:  I'm going to have some friends over tonite, okay?

Me:  Sure. How many are "some"?  Who are they?

Daughter:  Well, ten.  Do you REALLY   need all their names? 

Me:  (D knows we have a school directory with names and phone numbers, etc.) I'm sure their parents would like to know who we are, where their urchins are tonite...

Daughter:  Urchins?

Me:   Kids. Children.  And... do we need any snacks?

D:  I'll take care of that . Thanks dad.

 

(later)

D has ten or twelve kids in her room, "male and female made he them".  Music and festive sounds come from within. It is NOT that big a room.... I came over and crack the door open.

D:  Could you close the door, dad?

Me: (over the music)  No, I like the music...  Looks like a nice party!

D:  (over the music)  Yeah, dad, and it would be even BETTER with the door closed !

Me:  I'm sure it might.  Leave the door open. 

(smiles and giggles from the kids I see thru the door)

D:  Oh, okay....

[numbersnerd]

Each decision by the BSA pushes me closer to opting out to avoid the hypocrisy of supporting an organization that is becoming less and less reflective of my values and strays further from what it says its mission is. I know there's a certain crowd that's gonna say "boo hoo, get over it, this is the way it is now" or "Goodbye bigot" or somesuch. I'm fine with you having your opinions, just recognize I'm entitled to mine as well.

 

The primary problem I have with this is like others have stated, there are now very few opportunities for boys to be boys in this culture. I've had successful recruiting by pointing out we do this. Boys have a need to be boys. And we give them that opportunity. Feedback from many parents is that this is what they have been looking for and not found in other activities. They realize that boys need to figure out themsleves as males before having to deal with females. And we do it in a variety of settings and activities that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to enjoy.

 

And what about the revelation (and don't fool yourselves, it will eventually happen) of these gender switches derailing an otherwise successful unit? A girl identifying as a boy is no more a boy than calling a cat a dog. No matter what you think/feel/believe, it's still a cat. And no matter what you think/feel/believe, she's still a girl. At some point, this will happen and endanger the one thing everyone needs for a successful program: faith and trust in other participants, youth and adult, considering the best interests of all concerned, not just certain individuals. The talk about serving any youth desiring to participate? What about the desires of others wanting the same that introduce no such distraction and conflict? Don't THEY deserve some consideration as well?

 

Scouters can barely agree on uniform and activity issues, what makes anyone think these volunteers are capable, or even willing to BECOME capable, of handling topics like these? To be honest, if presented with this situation, I'd just give up. I do it for the boys, but even generosity has its limit. The additional hassle and politics surrounding this simply aren't worth it because no matter what, there will always be a side of this issue that feels betrayed and shorted. I know you can't always be liked by everyone in these situations, but this is one that the BSA has created that has no chance of everyone feeling they have an acceptable resolution.

 

Other issues:

• Co-ed scouting, because of the structure surrounding membership and enrollment, precluded females from acheiving ranks such as Eagle. Is that all gone now? Female registrants, having joined as Cubs or Scouts, are now eligible? Was this even thought out?
• What happens when the BSA rules on this, either way. Boys only for rank. All genders eligible. Do you think that THIS is going to be resolved easily?
• Additionally, now that "identify as" has now become acceptable to the BSA, what happens when a youth "identifies" as someone having completed all the requirements for rank but has no evidence or demonstration to back it up? "I feel that I am qualified for Eagle" Ludicrous you say? Well, just wait. Those seeking to circumvent membership standards don't really respect the institution, they just want things THEIR way. What makes you think they'll respect advancement standards?

Edited January 31, 2017 by numbersnerd

[Pale Horse]

The YPT question is this.  If a girl registers as a boy (for whatever reason), must the scout unit have a female scout leader at the activities?  

 

My guess is the answer is yes.  BSA will see this as a potential liability.  A female scout leader will be required.

 

Since BSA will have no way of knowing if any registered scout is actually a boy or a girl, they will have to require that all Boy Scout activities have a female unit leader.

 

What about an adult scout leader who "identifies as female"? Will that fit the bill?

[krypton_son]

 

Each decision by the BSA pushes me closer to opting out to avoid the hypocrisy of supporting an organization that is becoming less and less reflective of my values and strays further from what it says its mission is. I know there's a certain crowd that's gonna say "boo hoo, get over it, this is the way it is now" or "Goodbye bigot" or somesuch. I'm fine with you having your opinions, just recognize I'm entitled to mine as well.

 

I agree 100%.

[Eagle94-A1]

There will be girls who will register as boys simply because they disagree with BSA's boys-only policy. 

 

 

I do not know if it was in jest or serious as it was an email. But one father said he would say his daughter identify as male so she could join Scouting.

 

BSA has opened a can of worms.

[Col. Flagg]

I heard about this change after our meeting last night. I chatted with two long-time Scouters who told me they were "done" with Scouting. They agree that people need to be treated equally, but that crow-barring open boy-only programs when there are coed alternatives only further erodes the program. After talking to several folks this morning I find that several other Scouters outside my unit are also ending their relationship with Scouting.

 

I imagine no different than all boy units with female SM/ASMs.  Regardless, BSA is asexual in my opinion.  Our unit has never had husband/wife leader team before but it has been discussed.  The Troop would insist on separate tents for even a married couple.

 

Boy Scouts cannot be "asexual" by the mere name. It's Boy Scouts! Not Asexual Scouts. Not I Used To Be A Girl And Am Now A Boy Scouts.

 

Well, as a man, I would have no idea how to advise, etc., a girl having her first period. Since the pretense is that this girl is actually  a "boy" there is no requirement for a female leader to be on the trip.  I just think it would make for a lot of complications.  The YPT implications are enormous. 

 

Exactly. If she's a "boy" then there's no reason to have a female leader on the trip. I would no sooner send a female leader to deal with a private "boy" issue than I would send a male leader in Venturing to deal with a "female" issue. Now, if no other option is available then you go two-deep and solve the issue as delicately as possible. But if the "girl" claims to be a "boy" then I am not going to staff a female leader just because.

 

I think some of you underestimate the potential for hypocrisy at BSA headquarters.  BSA will say that the girls can register as boys, and then they will require that female scout leaders be at all their activities.

 

ROFL...to be certain, if it can be screwed up and further convoluted BSA will find a way. But imagine how impossible that might be in certain parts of the country. We find it hard enough to staff things normally, imagine adding the need to have female ASMs now as a requirement. And wouldn't that just be hypocritical? Acknowledging a girl as a boy but still assigning a woman to oversee any "girl" issues? The contradictions are just too numerous to wrap one's head around.

 

 

Adult Supervision/Coed Activities

Male and female adult leaders must be present for all overnight coed Scouting trips and outings, even those including parent and child. Both male and female adult leaders must be 21 years of age or older, and one must be a registered member of the BSA.  (http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx)

The issue is what's going to go down in the court of law when something unfortunate does happen here.  Even if the person identifies as a male, they are still a female (i.e., female identifying as a male), so did you do your due diligence to protect this person?  

 

Well, in Boy Scouts you can only have one sex camp outs as far as youth are concerned. Sisters -- assuming they identify as sisters and not as bothers, cousins or out-of-the family altogether -- are not supposed to go on Boy Scout camp outs. If they do, they are the responsibility of the parent that brought them, and not under the domain of the Boy Scout leaders, so no need for the SM to staff a female leader just because some ASM brought his daughter with.

 

Venturing is different, and this policy above is supposed to address that prospect.

 

It would have been far simpler -- and far less inflammatory -- had BSA just allowed girls, converted Boy Scouts to Venturing and been done with it. This PC-By-1000-Cuts is just further eroding the brand.

 

My two cents.

[Col. Flagg]

Other issues:

• Co-ed scouting, because of the structure surrounding membership and enrollment, precluded females from acheiving ranks such as Eagle. Is that all gone now? Female registrants, having joined as Cubs or Scouts, are now eligible? Was this even thought out?
• What happens when the BSA rules on this, either way. Boys only for rank. All genders eligible. Do you think that THIS is going to be resolved easily?

 

It appears this is already happening. Would it surprise anyone what her father does for a living? Guesses? Wait for it....he's an attorney!!    

 

I joined Venturing because I was looking forward to working with my coed unit. It was different from 12+ years as a Boy Scout leader. Maybe I should just wait until BSA drops the next big change (girls -- real girls, that is) are able to join Boy Scouts.

 

Odd how the privilege checkers don't check their own privilege at how they keep attacking any group they feel is the oppressor. Who polices them? 

[Oldscout448]

I am foreseeing a conversation with my troops CO going like this

 

"So if we treat Helen  Joe like a boy and something goes wrong as a direct or indirect result we could very well face a lawsuit.

 

If we treat Helen  Joe like a girl and offend her him or a parent, or some trans rights group we never heard of, we face a lawsuit anyway.

 

If there is a local option (is there?) and we say 'No trans' we may get hit as well

 

This is a no win situation if I ever saw one, so why should we not dump scouting as fast as we can?"

 

Right now I can't think of a single answer.

 

you?

[hendrickms24]

I am foreseeing a conversation with my troops CO going like this

 

"So if we treat Helen  Joe like a boy and something goes wrong as a direct or indirect result we could very well face a lawsuit.

 

If we treat Helen  Joe like a girl and offend her him or a parent, or some trans rights group we never heard of, we face a lawsuit anyway.

 

If there is a local option (is there?) and we say 'No trans' we may get hit as well

 

This is a no win situation if I ever saw one, so why should we not dump scouting as fast as we can?"

 

Right now I can't think of a single answer.

 

you?

 

I have been thinking about this topic all day since hearing about it and I'm starting to lean towards walking away.  

I think Coed can be a good thing but also think Boys and Girls need a place to call their own.  

[tnmule20]

Sad, Very sad.  My son and I will be looking into Trail Life USA.  We are being mollycoddled into thinking this is the new normal.  The BSA has failed the boys that it was created to serve.  The transgender paradigm does nothing but service the liberal/progressive agenda that is out to destroy our sons.  The only way the BSA makes this work is by going co-ed like the Venturing model and doing away with Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.