Transgender policy change

[mashmaster]

I respecrtfully disagree. And by respectfully I mean I respect your opinion, but I don't think it's the right time or place to fight that battle. There are two sides to this issue and both are claiming the moral high ground. Just as much as I don't want anyone else telling me what my religious beliefs are, I shouldn't tell anyone else what theirs should be. We have differences. I'm okay with that. Maybe I'm right or maybe they're right. I think it's time the BSA let someone else decide. The thing is, nearly all the decisions I make regarding scouts has nothing to do with this issue. It's not worth the fight.

 

I know, I'm suggesting a pragmatic response whereas a lot of people want a moral one. When people fight every injustice they see they can stretch themselves too thin. Sometimes battles should be left for someone else to fight. If a transgender or gay kid wants to join scouts then let's help him find a place he'll be happy. Maybe, just maybe, if both sides try to help each other out they might stop yelling at each other.

I can live with others having a differing opinion, and I respect your opinion and feedback.

[Col. Flagg]

@@mashmaster, it's hard to take the moral high ground in an argument with someone when you essentially said that their religious beliefs (not believing in the gay life style) is tantamount to Jim Crowism, when the very argument itself discriminates based on one's religious beliefs. This is the irony of the Liberal argument. Once you start calling whites or Christians or [insert group here] as being in the wrong, then step all over their legal rights, you are guilty of what you accuse them of.

 

The law and BSA policy allow what happened to happen. Don't like it, fine. But you can't denigrate the CO or the troop for doing it and remain on the moral high ground. Doesn't work that way.

[Eagledad]

None of the other boys knew in either case about his preference and he is a great leader.  So he is doing quite well.  It infuriates me that the other troop decided to add their view of morality on his scout spirit.  It is pretty clear that this isn't OK, but the District Executive just threw his hands up and refused to do anything.   That was a very sad day for me.

Your words.

 

Barry

[mashmaster]

@@mashmaster, it's hard to take the moral high ground in an argument with someone when you essentially said that their religious beliefs (not believing in the gay life style) is tantamount to Jim Crowism, when the very argument itself discriminates based on one's religious beliefs. This is the irony of the Liberal argument. Once you start calling whites or Christians or [insert group here] as being in the wrong, then step all over their legal rights, you are guilty of what you accuse them of.

 

The law and BSA policy allow what happened to happen. Don't like it, fine. But you can't denigrate the CO or the troop for doing it and remain on the moral high ground. Doesn't work that way.

BSA recognizes people of all religions and religious beliefs.  Having a unit force a singular religious point of view doesn't match that BSA practice.  That is why we perform interfaith services for example.

[fred johnson]

Frankly, if you can't substitute the word "black" or "christian" into what ever you put in it is wrong IMHO.  The local option is BS and sounds like Jim Crow laws to me.  If he never outed himself there would have been no issue with advancement.  IMHO, he showed he was brave by saying it.  I am confident at that age there are many scouts that know about their own sexuality and wouldn't be brave enough to say anything in fear of retribution.  

 

There is no sex in scouting, not even discussion of it.  That is a subject to be discussed elsewhere.  

 

There has been zero issues with tenting just like they share lockerooms at school, they don't announce attractions.  The scouts always give the other scouts space to change on their own anyway.  I don't see why it should be announced, if he decided to let people know and there were tenting issues then we would handle it in a respectful manner.  We have more issues with scouts that really stink and their tentmates can't breath because of the smell.  

 

That is how we handle it, I am sure there are plenty of other opinions. 

 

Mashmaster ... Your comments are filled with contempt of others.  Different religious groups have different beliefs.  Unless you are going to start shutting down churches, there will always be different teachings and different beliefs.  As for scouts, no group has provided anywhere near the amount of support to scouts as churches have.  Financial support.  Space support.  Volunteer support.  Scouts has always had a strong faith component and it always will.  

 

"Local option" is about tolerance and working with others that believe differently.  Unless you are going to shut down the churches and move scouts to city hall, then the "local option" will always exist.  

 

"no sex" ... Correct for program elements, but you can not fully separate how the program is structured and run from youth that are going through puberty.  The topic leaks in and as scouters we only focus on the outer aspects such as respect and caring.  

 

"Zero issues" ... You are totally off-base with this assertion.  Way off base.  Just as adults can abuse, older youth can abuse those younger.  It's about imbalances of power and influence.  It happens.  There are multiple documented cases.  I know one locally.  It's a reason I don't like a 17 year old sharing a tent with an 11 year old.  Age is not necessarily the barrier though.  It's more a matter of maturity and influence.  

 

"scouts always give the other scouts space" ... You don't know that and it's not true.  I often share a tent with other adult leaders.  We are discrete, but we do change in the tent and not necessarily wait for the other to leave.  

 

This is a big change, but the it's less about saying it's good or bad and more about getting the scouts out of the courts.  

 

We all need to stop saying one side or the other is right or wrong.  We need to learn to accept and work together, and that's a two sided challenge.

[Col. Flagg]

BSA recognizes people of all religions and religious beliefs.  Having a unit force a singular religious point of view doesn't match that BSA practice.  That is why we perform interfaith services for example.

 

From the BSA prior to the the change in the 2013 membership policy. Note the red text.

 

"The policy change under discussion would allow the religious, civic, or educational organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting to determine how to address this issue. The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members, or parents. Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization’s mission, principles, or religious beliefs."

[fred johnson]

It infuriates me that the other troop decided to add their view of morality on his scout spirit. 

 

Teaching morality is the whole reason we have our sons in scouts.  I don't take my sons to an LDS unit as I don't share their beliefs.  I would definitely not have my sons in a UUA chartered troop either for the same reason.  Scouts is always an extension of the charter org and the beliefs and teachings of the charter org always affect the unit.  

Edited February 17, 2017 by fred johnson

[mashmaster]

Mashmaster ... Your comments are filled with contempt of others.  Different religious groups have different beliefs.  Unless you are going to start shutting down churches, there will always be different teachings and different beliefs.  As for scouts, no group has provided anywhere near the amount of support to scouts as churches have.  Financial support.  Space support.  Volunteer support.  Scouts has always had a strong faith component and it always will.  

 

"Local option" is about tolerance and working with others that believe differently.  Unless you are going to shut down the churches and move scouts to city hall, then the "local option" will always exist.  

 

"no sex" ... Correct for program elements, but you can not fully separate how the program is structured and run from youth that are going through puberty.  The topic leaks in and as scouters we only focus on the outer aspects such as respect and caring.  

 

"Zero issues" ... You are totally off-base with this assertion.  Way off base.  Just as adults can abuse, older youth can abuse those younger.  It's about imbalances of power and influence.  It happens.  There are multiple documented cases.  I know one locally.  It's a reason I don't like a 17 year old sharing a tent with an 11 year old.  Age is not necessarily the barrier though.  It's more a matter of maturity and influence.  

 

"scouts always give the other scouts space" ... You don't know that and it's not true.  I often share a tent with other adult leaders.  We are discrete, but we do change in the tent and not necessarily wait for the other to leave.  

 

This is a big change, but the it's less about saying it's good or bad and more about getting the scouts out of the courts.  

 

We all need to stop saying one side or the other is right or wrong.  We need to learn to accept and work together, and that's a two sided challenge.

I do not believe my comments are filled with contempt of others.   While different religious groups have different beliefs, it is not our purpose to impose a singular religion for our youth and families.   BSA recognizes this as they have many religious awards.  None of that is an attack on churches, it is open to allowing our youth to have different faiths and beliefs. 

 

Tolerance as you mention, in my interpretation would be to allow scouts to have different religious beliefs.  Even if that is different from the charter organization.

 

I will always be tolerant of any boy that is religious even if it differs from my own.  This boy is Christian and his church is ok with him, he regularly attends church and participates.  

[fred johnson]

BSA recognizes people of all religions and religious beliefs.  Having a unit force a singular religious point of view doesn't match that BSA practice.  That is why we perform interfaith services for example.

 

It only needs to be interfaith if there are mixed faiths such as district events.  Many avoid interfaith services as they are offensive in their generalities or what is implied.  

 

BSA is structured to support everyone.  But a troop works within a chartered org and is an extension of that charter org.  As such, it is completely okay for a Catholic chartered troop to run a Catholic faith service and expect it's scouts to attend.  Similarly for a Jewish, LDS or Muslim unit.  

 

Ideally, we find a way to work with our scouts.  But it is very reasonable for a charter org to expect faith services to reflect their faith. 

[mashmaster]

Teaching morality is the whole reason we have our sons in scouts.  I don't take my sons to an LDS unit as I don't share their beliefs.  I would definitely not have my sons in a UUA chartered troop either for the same reason.  Scouts is always an extension of the charter org and the beliefs and teachings of the charter org always affect the unit.  

We are chartered by a Methodist church and we have scouts that are: Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, and LDS.  I guess I am happy that we are chartered by a Methodist church rather than another religion that wouldn't allow us to provide a great program to all boys.

[fred johnson]

I do not believe my comments are filled with contempt of others.   While different religious groups have different beliefs, it is not our purpose to impose a singular religion for our youth and families.   BSA recognizes this as they have many religious awards.  None of that is an attack on churches, it is open to allowing our youth to have different faiths and beliefs. 

 

Tolerance as you mention, in my interpretation would be to allow scouts to have different religious beliefs.  Even if that is different from the charter organization.

 

I will always be tolerant of any boy that is religious even if it differs from my own.  This boy is Christian and his church is ok with him, he regularly attends church and participates.  

 

"I do not believe my comments are filled with contempt of others." ... Contempt is pulling race in with "blacks" to infer it's similar to racial bigotry.  You further that referencing Jim Crow laws.  

 

We work with scouts of all beliefs.  But a charter org can choose to not filter or to filter to match their beliefs.  Most charter orgs don't filter or care.  Some are open to all, but expect the scouts to attend faith services structured like their charter org.  That's fine too.  

 

"I will always be tolerant of any boy that is religious even if it differs from my own." ... Well I applaud you and I am similar in that our unit has little filter for faith based issues.  But, there are boundaries and at those boundaries the scout would need to find another unit.  

[NJCubScouter]

[Moderator hat on]

 

I have scrolled through today's posts in this thread, but I cannot say I have read everything, so I am going to make a general statement.

 

Not to single anyone out (for now at least) but it is clear that the general tone and tenor of this discussion (including some specific posts) has gone past the bounds of the Scout Law, even the somewhat lenient version we apply to Issues and Politics.  We all (as a group) need to cool down, dial it back, hit the pause button, and any other cliches you may want to throw in there.

 

Please do not criticize other individuals.  Address the posts and the issues.

[fred johnson]

We are chartered by a Methodist church and we have scouts that are: Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, and LDS.  I guess I am happy that we are chartered by a Methodist church rather than another religion that wouldn't allow us to provide a great program to all boys.

 

I should mention I am very glad most charter orgs don't filter or are overly selective in their membership.  It produces a better program.  

 

I just cringe when we criticize either side of this.  Charter orgs provide a huge amount of support whether we acknowledge it or not.  They have a right to influence programs they run.

 

I have similar opinions when people get upset at allowing gays or transgender in the program as it's a morality issue.  Our charter orgs have never had a singular beliefs on this.  As such, IMHO, it was always unreasonable of BSA to ask charter orgs to support BSA but BSA would not accept all members of that charter org.  

 

We are going through a period of correction so that we learn to work together.  

Edited February 17, 2017 by fred johnson

[Col. Flagg]

We are chartered by a Methodist church and we have scouts that are: Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, and LDS.  I guess I am happy that we are chartered by a Methodist church rather than another religion that wouldn't allow us to provide a great program to all boys.

 

I think you are missing @@fred johnson's point. The UMC is welcome to open their Boy Scout doors to whoever they please. That's policy that the BSA gives them. The members of that scout unit must abide by the UMC beliefs. So if the UMC folks believed in eating bacon three times a day as part of their religious observance, I don't think the Muslim and Jewish scouts would want to stay, and the church could exclude them under BSA policy.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[TAHAWK]

I was a Scout in a Methodist unit, and we had Christians of of many denominations, Muslims, Jews, Baha'i, and Hindus.  We had two LDS patrols for a year until they had enough boys to have their own troop.  We had Scouts of every color.  We learned a lot about others beliefs and acted respectfully towards them all; that was the troop culture.  The families that joined knew all this coming in.  Our biggest critics were from the John Birch Society - or the Birch John Society as we called them (with apologies to all the "Johns" out there).  The idea that the Scouts who kept kosher or halal would have quit over someone else eating pork - or meat for vegetarians -- sounds silly to me based on 13 years with that troop.

 

Jump forward, and I spent 25 years with another polyglot troop.  Same culture.  Same results.  

 

Perhaps those horrified by different beliefs never joined.  But that's OK as they would not have been willing to follow the Law.  "He respects the beliefs of others."