Transgender policy change

[EmberMike]

My oldest son wanted to leave scouts due to a gay scout that was very vocal about his lifestyle.  I would ask, how does this fit into "Morally Straight".  It doesn't and no one will question it for fear of retribution.  I know that five scouts have left this troop due to this scout.  Lets see, five scouts leave to due to the actions of a gay scout.  Those figures don't seem to add up in favor of the new policies. 

 

 

You can't judge a policy by one person. Using the same flawed math, someone could argue that 50 gay scouts shouldn't be prohibited from joining because 5 scouts have a problem with people being gay. 

 

There was a gay scout in my troop when I was a kid. Most of the guys didn't even know he was gay. The rest didn't care. Most gay people are more like that guy. 

 

I sat right next to a gay guy at work for 2 years before I knew he was gay. 

 

There will always be a few overly vocal people who get on everyone's nerves, probably even the nerves of other gay people. But I'd hate to see any organization make policy based on the actin of a few and suppress the ability of the majority of a group to participate because of that. 

[EmberMike]

As I'm watching mothers proudly walk with their eight year old daughters at anti-abortion marchs on the news, I think to myself, "adults today don't allow our children any innocence". 

 

Just wondering what your thoughts are on the parents who paraded their cub scouts in front of the media with signs either for or against lifting the BSA gay member ban?

[Eagledad]

Just wondering what your thoughts are on the parents who paraded their cub scouts in front of the media with signs either for or against lifting the BSA gay member ban?

Same as any adult who exploits children for a personal gain.

 

Barry

[David CO]

Eagledad,

 

Adults today don't allow our children any innocence.  Interesting comment.

 

Growing up Catholic, I was exposed to images and descriptions of brutality and torture at a very young age.  I knew what scourging and crucifixion was by the time I was in kindergarten.  I also knew about the beheading of John the Baptist and of the Christians who were thrown to the lions.

 

I didn't have specific knowledge of sex at that age, but I did have a general understanding of sexual immorality.  I had seen the images of wanton women and bawdy men drunkenly cavorting in front of the golden calf.  I understood the concept, if not the details.

 

I knew about starvation.  My grandmother often told tales about my ancestors in the Irish famine.  I also knew that children were suffering and dying in third world countries.

 

I also knew about death and disease.  Our bedtime prayer reminded us that we were not guaranteed of waking up the next morning.

[Stosh]

Back when I was in college, I was working with a church youth group and went along with the pastor to supervise.  The boys section of the retreat center one night turned into a "sports locker room" in it's conversational tone.  The pastor walked in, sat down on a bunk and said, "So, you want to talk about sex?  Okay, let's go, I'm ready."  Dead silence and the subject never came up again.

 

Although it is only a personal definition expressed by just a few, a homosexual is one who prefers the accompaniment of the same sex, a person who is gay, makes sure everyone around them knows it.  I have no problem with homosexuals, I do have a problem with the social agenda of gays.

 

I had a roommate in college who was homosexual.  He asked me early on if I had a problem with him being a homosexual.  I said no.  The subject was never brought up again and we got along just fine.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

Eagledad,

 

Adults today don't allow our children any innocence.  Interesting comment.

 

Growing up Catholic, I was exposed to images and descriptions of brutality and torture at a very young age.  I knew what scourging and crucifixion was by the time I was in kindergarten.  I also knew about the beheading of John the Baptist and of the Christians who were thrown to the lions.

 

I didn't have specific knowledge of sex at that age, but I did have a general understanding of sexual immorality.  I had seen the images of wanton women and bawdy men drunkenly cavorting in front of the golden calf.  I understood the concept, if not the details.

 

I knew about starvation.  My grandmother often told tales about my ancestors in the Irish famine.  I also knew that children were suffering and dying in third world countries.

 

I also knew about death and disease.  Our bedtime prayer reminded us that we were not guaranteed of waking up the next morning.

Well, I guess families will have some different definitions of innocence. When I read your list, I see the adults in your life acting in "your" best interest in what they exposed you to. I think that is about defined as I can get it. 

 

Yes I know this is extreme, but there was a recent article in the paper about a 20 year old father (they think he is the father, maybe not) who killed the three week old infant of the 13 year old mother. The mother asked the father to kill her baby. I can't comprehend any part of the situation. I had to read the article three times to get the ages right. Somehow I don't think there were any adults in any of these kids lives that were acting in their best interest, ever.

 

Barry 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article133213859.html

 

Op-ed piece from NC

[cchoat]

I would not make that assumption, fellow counselor.  The BSA is regarding this child (using the example of the Cub Scout in New Jersey) as a boy and accepting him as a boy, even though his birth certificate says he is a girl and he presumably has the physical characteristics of a girl.  There is nothing in the BSA's statement that indicates he is going to be regarded as a boy for some purposes (like membership) and a girl for other purposes (like YP.)  If that is going to be the case, I think the BSA had better say so pretty quickly, or else inadvertent YP violations are inevitable.

 

Perhaps @@RichardB could educate us on this subject?

(Edited for spelling errors)

 

Here in lies the rub...

 

Until the first lawsuit is filed by a transgender boy who feels discriminated against, we will not know which way this whole issue will go.  National has stated that it will allow transgender boys to join, but again allows the local unit to decide if the "boy' can join thier unit.  It quotes the right of the religious chartering organization to select leaders and youth members that are not in conflict with their churches teaching. 

 

So...

 

In my neck of the woods (Southwest Louisiana), we lost many of our units when national made the first decision in 2013.  Many of the COs bounced the troops because it went against their religious teachings.  A few more left in 2015.  As the District Commissioner, the COs all quoted the same mantra, "Yes, we have a religious conflict, yes, we have always allowed boys from other faiths to join our units, but this is too much.  It is not worth the negative press and time to fight a case that we will legally win in court, just to lose in the court of public relations.  Easier to not recharter and drop the whole headache.  And while national has stated that it will fund a defence, the COs remember that national went to court to defend the BSA's right to free association in the early 2000's only to change course when the "money" began to dry up.  So there's little trust there.

 

Frankly, my CO (I am also a Scoutmaster) and i have sat down and discussed this matter and will accept any youth looking to join.  This is the third conversation I have had to have and thankfully the CO of the church is open minded. What worries me is that National was quick to change, and now slow to put out policies that will address the YPT concerns of units that may have these youth in their membership.  This could give national an "out" of it's pledge to support local units decisions on the grounds that YPT was not properly followed.  (The "boy" was segragated and forced to shower before or after the other boys in the troop as an example, or required to use a seporate "gender neutral" bathroom at camp.) 

 

But...

 

To this end it is our troop policy that we will sit down and explain that if the "boy" wishes to join, one of his parents will also join the troop and willtake all the required training (YPT and position specific) and that they will attend all troop events with their youth.  I will stress that this is because I not only have the best interests of their scout in mind, but that of my fellow leaders.  As an adult leader, this parent will be able to see everything, be involved with everything, and hopefully defuse a potential lawsuit before it rears its ugly head. 

 

OBTW: I am blessed with an abundance of two man tents to allow one scout per tent, so this is one issue that I will not face. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by cchoat

[mashmaster]

Well, we have a boy in our troop that had let his leaders know he was gay during his communications merit badge.  Not exactly the right time to proclaim it I guess but his troop proceeded to inform him that he will never advance in rank even though the BSA had already made their decision.  He came to our troop and we told him that fact doesn't matter to us, we cared about his leadership and ability to complete the requirements.

 

None of the other boys knew in either case about his preference and he is a great leader.  So he is doing quite well.  It infuriates me that the other troop decided to add their view of morality on his scout spirit.  It is pretty clear that this isn't OK, but the District Executive just threw his hands up and refused to do anything.   That was a very sad day for me.

[Col. Flagg]

Well, we have a boy in our troop that had let his leaders know he was gay during his communications merit badge.  Not exactly the right time to proclaim it I guess but his troop proceeded to inform him that he will never advance in rank even though the BSA had already made their decision.  He came to our troop and we told him that fact doesn't matter to us, we cared about his leadership and ability to complete the requirements.

 

None of the other boys knew in either case about his preference and he is a great leader.  So he is doing quite well.  It infuriates me that the other troop decided to add their view of morality on his scout spirit.  It is pretty clear that this isn't OK, but the District Executive just threw his hands up and refused to do anything.   That was a very sad day for me.

 

That's the local option working the way BSA intended when they made their policy change. Hopefully the other troop handled it in a respectful manner, but this is what happens when people need to respect each other's positions. The troop respects his right to be who he is, and he has to respect their right to have the troop they want.

 

Should something else have happened?

[Eagledad]

None of the other boys knew in either case about his preference and he is a great leader.  So he is doing quite well.  It infuriates me that the other troop decided to add their view of morality on his scout spirit.  It is pretty clear that this isn't OK, but the District Executive just threw his hands up and refused to do anything.   That was a very sad day for me.

 

Well wait a minute, what about the local option?

 

Here is a different question: On the pretense of sexual attraction, would it be alright for male and female scouts sleep in the same tent? With that being asked, since gay males are sexually attracted to males, shouldn't the other scouts know the scout is gay so they understand the sexuality of their relationship during the activities, and tenting arrangements?

 

I don't know because I have no experience in this area.

 

Barry

Edited February 17, 2017 by Eagledad

[mashmaster]

Frankly, if you can't substitute the word "black" or "christian" into what ever you put in it is wrong IMHO.  The local option is BS and sounds like Jim Crow laws to me.  If he never outed himself there would have been no issue with advancement.  IMHO, he showed he was brave by saying it.  I am confident at that age there are many scouts that know about their own sexuality and wouldn't be brave enough to say anything in fear of retribution.  

 

There is no sex in scouting, not even discussion of it.  That is a subject to be discussed elsewhere.  

 

There has been zero issues with tenting just like they share lockerooms at school, they don't announce attractions.  The scouts always give the other scouts space to change on their own anyway.  I don't see why it should be announced, if he decided to let people know and there were tenting issues then we would handle it in a respectful manner.  We have more issues with scouts that really stink and their tentmates can't breath because of the smell.  

 

That is how we handle it, I am sure there are plenty of other opinions. 

[Eagledad]

.  

 

There has been zero issues with tenting just like they share lockerooms at school, they don't announce attractions.  The scouts always give the other scouts space to change on their own anyway.  I don't see why it should be announced, if he decided to let people know and there were tenting issues then we would handle it in a respectful manner.  We have more issues with scouts that really stink and their tentmates can't breath because of the smell.  

 

That is how we handle it, I am sure there are plenty of other opinions. 

First off, we will get back to your offensive insinuation of the other unit. Nothing less than bigotry and religious intolerance as far as I'm concerned. You have NO integrity in this forum in a discussion of judging others.

 

2nd, HOW DO YOU KNOW, YOU HAVEN'T TOLD THE SCOUTS!. It doesn't matter how you announce it, the other families have a right to know. Your shower comments are irrelevant since the other scouts don't know.

 

Your example of how you are handling this matter is exactly my problem with the BSA handing this kind of responsibility to the volunteers. Keeping secrets like this in the program creates a huge risk. Someone is going to get hurt and quite frankly, there is a serious risk of safety here.

 

Don't use this No Sex In Scouting to defend your recklessness. Are you standing over all the scouts in their tents at night. You do know that the BSA get a fair number of scout to scout sexual abuse calls. It's not always about actions, but perception.

 

I am amazed. Does the District or Council leaders know. Is this standard procedure in other units?

 

Shesh!

 

Barry

Edited February 17, 2017 by Eagledad

[MattR]

Frankly, if you can't substitute the word "black" or "christian" into what ever you put in it is wrong IMHO.  The local option is BS and sounds like Jim Crow laws to me.

 

I respecrtfully disagree. And by respectfully I mean I respect your opinion, but I don't think it's the right time or place to fight that battle. There are two sides to this issue and both are claiming the moral high ground. Just as much as I don't want anyone else telling me what my religious beliefs are, I shouldn't tell anyone else what theirs should be. We have differences. I'm okay with that. Maybe I'm right or maybe they're right. I think it's time the BSA let someone else decide. The thing is, nearly all the decisions I make regarding scouts has nothing to do with this issue. It's not worth the fight.

 

I know, I'm suggesting a pragmatic response whereas a lot of people want a moral one. When people fight every injustice they see they can stretch themselves too thin. Sometimes battles should be left for someone else to fight. If a transgender or gay kid wants to join scouts then let's help him find a place he'll be happy. Maybe, just maybe, if both sides try to help each other out they might stop yelling at each other.

[mashmaster]

First off, we will get back to your offensive insinuation of the other unit. Nothing less than bigotry and religious intolerance as far as I'm concerned. You have NO integrity in this forum in a discussion of judging others.

 

2nd, HOW DO YOU KNOW, YOU HAVEN'T TOLD THE SCOUTS!. It doesn't matter how you announce it, the other families have a right to know. Your shower comments are irrelevant since the other scouts don't know.

 

Your example of how you are handling this matter is exactly my problem with the BSA handing this kind of responsibility to the volunteers. Keeping secrets like this in the program creates a huge risk. Someone is going to get hurt and quite frankly, there is a serious risk of safety here.

 

Don't use this No Sex In Scouting to defend your recklessness. Are you standing over all the scouts in their tents at night. You do know that the BSA get a fair number of scout to scout sexual abuse calls. It's not always about actions, but perception.

 

I am amazed. Does the District or Council leaders know. Is this standard procedure in other units?

 

Shesh!

 

Barry

Feel free to ignore me if you would like.  But how dare you comment on my character.   I do not comment on your character and what I think of it because I don't know you well enough.  

 

I disagree with you on this subject and you will not change my opinion.   Feel free to come to Texas and sit with me at a restaurant and have a civil discussion and realize that there are a lot of people in this world that don't think the way that you do.  I can guarantee to you that in your workplace, scout unit, and even family that you will find that you do not agree with them.  Do you fallback on assassinating their character as well?