Transgender policy change

[Pale Horse]

 

 

You and I have a different definition of what support and harm means in raising children. In my lifetime I found that children feel a kind of horror when they are betrayed by the adults they trusted. It changes them and while they may recover (revert?), it never goes away.

 

 

 

Sorry, I'm not following.  How is the adult betraying the child?

[Eagledad]

Anytime a child feels unsafe as the result of an adults self-serving action, they feel betrayed.

 

Barry

[Pale Horse]

There must be some disconnect,  I'm not sure what you are referring to as harmful.

 

I am not talking about any parent/adult actions other than loving, supporting, and accepting kids for who they are.  I wouldn't classify that as self-serving. 

[DuctTape]

The difference in opinion here is based upon each starting from a different premise. There are two main premises which are at odds with one another.

 

Premise 1: All gay, transgender, etc... is a choice made by the person.

 

Premise 2: All gay, transgender, etc... are not choices made by the person.

 

We are arguing conclusions without first agreeing on an original premise. I highly doubt that agreement on the two contradictory premises is coming anytime soon.

[Pale Horse]

The difference in opinion here is based upon each starting from a different premise. There are two main premises which are at odds with one another.

 

Premise 1: All gay, transgender, etc... is a choice made by the person.

 

Premise 2: All gay, transgender, etc... are not choices made by the person.

 

We are arguing conclusions without first agreeing on an original premise. I highly doubt that agreement on the two contradictory premises is coming anytime soon.

 

Maybe, but I don't think that's it.  Regardless of whether it's a choice or not, you can still love and support someone.  To stretch it to the extremes, I can love someone regardless of race (no choice) as well as if they dislike lasagna or Batman (a choice, though obviously the wrong one).  For the purposes of this debate, I would gladly concede either option for gay/trans preference (choice/no-choice) because it's irrelevant to the argument.

 

I believe, but don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, that EagleDad may be implying that supporting a gay or trans lifestyle is harmful because it it "immoral".  Please correct me if i'm wrong though.

[Eagledad]

I believe, but don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, that EagleDad may be implying that supporting a gay or trans lifestyle is harmful because it it "immoral".  Please correct me if i'm wrong though.

Immoral? Yes, in the context of mental and physical harm. If someone starts on an un-natural lifestyle path as a result of adult choices that weren't in that childs best interest, I believe putting them in an environment that further encourages their lifestyle is abuse. The BSA is putting volunteers in responsibilities where they could risk further harm. So yes, that is immoral to me. 

 

Barry

Edited February 16, 2017 by Eagledad

[Pale Horse]

Fair enough.  Obviously I disagree.  I feel I'm in no position to judge what is "natural" or to tell someone what is moral.

 

Also to consider is that said child will be living their chosen lifestyle whether they're in scouts or not.  I'd prefer they have a welcoming and tolerant place to pursue their interests instead of just another place that makes them feel unwanted and alone.

 

If a child wants to learn about bushcraft, citizenship, camping, hiking, project management and leadership skills, I'll gladly share what I can.

[Stosh]

Sorry, I'm not following.  How is the adult betraying the child?

 

What did Santa bring you last Christmas?  Oh, did the tooth fairy come last night?  How about the Easter Bunny was he at your house?

 

No wonder children grow up not trusting a word that comes out their parents' mouth.

[Col. Flagg]

What did Santa bring you last Christmas?  Oh, did the tooth fairy come last night?  How about the Easter Bunny was he at your house?

 

No wonder children grow up not trusting a word that comes out their parents' mouth.

 

You forgot, "You'll be able to keep your physician", "No new taxes" and "What difference does it make?"   

[Pale Horse]

What did Santa bring you last Christmas?  Oh, did the tooth fairy come last night?  How about the Easter Bunny was he at your house?

 

No wonder children grow up not trusting a word that comes out their parents' mouth.

 

Again, I'm confused.  Where exactly am I supporting lying to your children?  Unconditional love and support is now abuse?

 

Maybe I'm too new to this particular forum to know how to read everyone's individual slant or sarcasm.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Pale Horse

[Stosh]

Again, I'm confused.  Where exactly am I supporting lying to your children?  Unconditional love and support is now abuse?

 

I'm just pointing out that adults betray their children all the time.  Why would it thus not be impossible to confuse them with their sexual identification? 

 

My children never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy nor the Easter Bunny.  They grew up just fine..... and my grandchildren do not believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy nor the Easter Bunny either.

 

My one daughter was into glitter and nail polish and the other blue jeans and flannel shirts.  People at times asked me if the one was a lesbian.  I always said no she wasn't.  She's happily married and has a child of her own who is growing up just fine except when she wears her pink tutu with her blue jeans bib overalls.  Looks kinda strange, but she's happy.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Stosh

[Pale Horse]

I'm just pointing out that adults betray their children all the time.  Why would it thus not be impossible to confuse them with their sexual identification? 

 

My children never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy nor the Easter Bunny.  They grew up just fine..... and my grandchildren do not believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy nor the Easter Bunny either.

 

My one daughter was into glitter and nail polish and the other blue jeans and flannel shirts.  People at times asked me if the one was a lesbian.  I always said no she wasn't.  She's happily married and has a child of her own who is growing up just fine except when she wears her pink tutu with her blue jeans bib overalls.  Looks kinda strange, but she's happy.

 

I wouldn't exactly call indulging childhood fantasies about Santa et al betraying them.  However neither do I lie to my child in order to convince him that there is an omni-present spiritual being watching over us.  We believe in doing what is right, because it is the right thing to do, not out of fear of Hell.

 

And while I personally don't know any Trans children, I would be surprised if any such kids feel the way they do because they were forced to feel that way by their parents.  

[Eagledad]

Fair enough.  Obviously I disagree.  I feel I'm in no position to judge what is "natural" or to tell someone what is moral.

 

 

I'm speaking at a high level of the organization making decisions for their volunteers, but OK.

 

Here is a hypothetical for you, real life experience for me. A new scout joins the troop who absolutely loves the program. Dad, who is an Eagle, is excited to volunteer as well. However, mom and dad are in the middle of a fierce divorce. Mom uses scouts to make her son do things against his dad, and to force dad to make tough decisions about his relationship with his son. Every time scouting comes up in any way, son is caught in the middle of a loud discussion. 

 

Do you have any moral opinion or judgement of the situation, or more importantly your position as a leader (scoutmaster for me) in that situation?

 

Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. Mom puts her son in scouting because she really believe the experience does develop better habits of character. Dad thinks scouting is for sissies and tells his son that every time he puts on a uniform. Is there a moral opinion here? Judgment?

 

Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. You, the Scoutmaster, get call by the police in the middle of the night to help in a domestic call of child abuse. Seems the abused child's brother ask for help from the only person he trust, his scoutmaster. This does not set well with the parents. The overall situation raises to a level that the family disappears that week, never to be found again. Loaded their car and left everything.

 

Why do so many people think that not having a moral opinion or not judging is more noble? I honestly don't understand.

 

Barry

[Pale Horse]

I'm speaking at a high level of the organization making decisions for their volunteers, but OK.

 

Here is a hypothetical for you, real life experience for me. A new scout joins the troop who absolutely loves the program. Dad, who is an Eagle, is excited to volunteer as well. However, mom and dad are in the middle of a fierce divorce. Mom uses scouts to make her son do things against his dad, and to force dad to make tough decisions about his relationship with his son. Every time scouting comes up in any way, son is caught in the middle of a loud discussion. 

 

Do you have any moral opinion or judgement of the situation, or more importantly your position as a leader (scoutmaster for me) in that situation?

 

Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. Mom puts her son in scouting because she really believe the experience does develop better habits of character. Dad thinks scouting is for sissies and tells his son that every time he puts on a uniform. Is there a moral opinion here? Judgment?

 

Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. You, the Scoutmaster, get call by the police in the middle of the night to help in a domestic call of child abuse. Seems the abused child's brother ask for help from the only person he trust, his scoutmaster. This does not set well with the parents. The overall situation raises to a level that the family disappears that week, never to be found again. Loaded their car and left everything.

 

Why do so many people think that not having a moral opinion or not judging is more noble? I honestly don't understand.

 

Barry

 

To answer your last question, it goes to the belief in whether harm is being done (in one's own eyes).  To me, I don't feel that if Joanne wants to be called Joey and do boy stuff, it's causing any harm.  This phenomenon has been going on a long time.  Yesteryear, they were just called Tom Boys and grew up to be "normal" every day adults.  It's just recently we decided that we needed to elevate this and label them as Transgender.

 

As to your hypotheticals/real life experiences, there is obviously considerable harm being done. I don't think anyone will dispute that.  I have no reservations about passing judgment in these situations.  However, when we start becoming the moral police, that is where I draw the line.  There's too much disagreement, to begin trying to decide who is right/wrong and treating people differently based on their beliefs. 

[Stosh]

I wouldn't exactly call indulging childhood fantasies about Santa et al betraying them.  However neither do I lie to my child in order to convince him that there is an omni-present spiritual being watching over us.  We believe in doing what is right, because it is the right thing to do, not out of fear of Hell.

 

And while I personally don't know any Trans children, I would be surprised if any such kids feel the way they do because they were forced to feel that way by their parents.  

 

So it is okay to say to a small child you can believe that Santa is "real" and pass it off with a wink and nod as a childhood fantasy.  Yet we expect them to then believe that God is not a childhood fantasy, too?  How's a developing child supposed to interpret that concept?  They trust the word of their parents and if they can betray them just as well with God, their sexuality, their intelligence and anything else that comes from their comments.  This is why once they pass through and work out which of their parents' comments may be truthful and which ones might not, the come to grips with some sort of variant conclusion of their own.  Sure most give up on Santa, but he's still around, one's intelligence is always ify depending on one's report card as proof one way or another, and one's sex is as well if there's a whole world is still promoting the idea that it is real.

 

That's a pretty heavy burden to dump on small children.  We as parents chose to go with honesty as a policy so my kids never believed in Santa, but they have a strong belief in their religion, they believed in their potential intellectually, one graduated Valedictorian and are assured in their scientifically proven sexuality.  To this day they still trust in what we tell them as to what we believe is the truth.