Transgender policy change

[MattR]

You know, after 19 pages there has been no blood spilled and we found something we agree on.

[David CO]

Which position do you think is questioning the legitimacy of God's creations?  If God created all, then God surely created the girls that believe they are really boys and the boys that believe they are really girls.  Who are we to question his wisdom in that?

 

God also created Satan.

[NJCubScouter]

God also created Satan.

David, I am sure you are not analogizing an 8-year-old child who wants to be a Cub Scout, to Satan, so I won't address that further.

 

Doesn't make any difference to me anyway, since I don't believe in Satan.

[numbersnerd]

David, I am sure you are not analogizing an 8-year-old child who wants to be a Cub Scout, to Satan, so I won't address that further.

 

 

Wow. Just wow. If you are sure that's not what he meant and you aren't going to comment on it further, why bother with the post?

 

What I am pretty sure he meant was he was challenging the asserton that we should embrace all that God creates. Does that make sense?

But maybe since you don't believe in the concept of God and Satan, it's beyond comprehension. Or maybe it's just pot stirring. 

[Stosh]

God created free will, it is us that screw things up in this world.  We keep slamming our fingers in the door and blaming God for all the pain he creates.  Our human blindness is well documented in the realm of psychology.  Our inability to take the blame for what we do to hurt others is well documented as well and the story goes on and on. 

 

Like our finger prints, no two of us are alike.  We are all born with various shortcomings that will either strengthen our character or break our spirits.  THE CHOICE of free will determines who we are.  Simply ignoring our short-comings and blaming society, God, Satan and the President for all our ills solves nothing, but the blindness to our human nature cripples us in the process.

 

No one was born perfect.  Once we have established that, we can move on to dealing with ourselves and how we fit into the world which we all share.  Mandating everyone to conform to oneself hasn't worked from day one and no one has been able to change that.  Move on, stagnation does not build character, it only victimizes, beats down and destroys oneself in the end.

[Back Pack]

Wow. Just wow. If you are sure that's not what he meant and you aren't going to comment on it further, why bother with the post?

 

What I am pretty sure he meant was he was challenging the asserton that we should embrace all that God creates. Does that make sense?

But maybe since you don't believe in the concept of God and Satan, it's beyond comprehension. Or maybe it's just pot stirring.

 

Pot-stirring. It's the passive-aggressive way of throwing mud without looking like you are.

 

But he clearly missed the inference of Satan's role in all of this.

[David CO]

Of course I'm not comparing an 8 year old girl to Satan.  She is his victim, not his accomplice.

[qwazse]

You folks give new meaning to the devil is in the details.

[gumbymaster]

Are we now calling transgender a "Medical Issues"?  I read in earlier posts it is not a medical or psychological issue.  This is not an "allergy" or "physical disability".  This is a scout with the biological body of a female claiming on a membership form to be a male.  Again, you will never know and according to our District and Council per National, you are not allowed to ask.  I asked the same question, what do you do when you find out by looking over the medical form"  According to the new policy, that scout is to be treated based solely on what they put on that BSA application.  I agree, we as volunteer leaders need to know but according to the new policy, you will not and can not ask.  I also agree, I am not willing to put myself or family at risk over something I am not qualified to handle.  It appears this was poorly thought out and no one in "charge" thought about all the issues that could come about.  I think 10x the number of leaders and scouts will leave the program than what is brought in with this new policy.

 

I was not sure if you were indicating that I was calling TG a medical issue or if that was a general statement.  My intent with the statement was simply that I wanted to know about any kind of issue about any of the youth I serve if that issue has the potential to effect how I do my program or safety issues related to it.

 

I was an EMT, I develop medical devices for a career.  There are still inherent medical needs that a biological female may (TG male or not) need to be treated differently.  It is not about not treating them as a male as much as it is about providing appropriate medical care.  Thus I want (and feel like I need) to know if one of my youth are TG.  For any other aspect of the program, I am perfectly willing to treat them how they want to be treated.  If the parent's aren't good with that (after all I really do have what I think are the best interest of the child at heart) then I am not the right leader for their child and one of the two of us will not be moving on to the next round.

 

Even the statements from National in regards to finding a unit that best serves the child's needs identifies that not all units will be able to handle this - the reasons for that are are more than I could list with religious affiliations being only one; poor or insufficient leadership and/or not reasonable skilled in serving youth (we'll question later if that person should be a leader at all), etc.  We cannot find a unit that serves their needs if we don't know what those needs are.

 

Personally, as long as the parents were working with me, I think I could handle it as a leader, and I expect the units I am most closely associate with (none are church sponsored) would be welcoming (youth, adult leaders, and parents).

 

In cub scouts, we may not figure it out if we aren't told; but by Boy Scouts we'll probably know - told or not.

 

Unfortunately, I also think you are probably (very) low on the loss/replace ratio.

[gumbymaster]

"White Stag" as the End of Scouting as We Know It.

 

As many know, the first Wood Badge course was all-Scoutcraft to First Calls level.  When the "Leadership Skills" from White Stag were inserted and Scoutcraft reduced, we heard the changes (about forty-five years ago) were "The End of Scouting as We Know It."   And we hear the same in the forum, over and over.

 

In turn, when the White Stag Skills were dropped from Wood Badge some fifteen years ago, that too was "The End of Scouting as We Know It."   

 

 

 

I know some mods have asked for this thread to stay more on topic and this is a tangent, but I feel compelled to speak out.

 

Disclaimers:

1. I was not an adult at the time of "Woodbadge for the 21st century" or whatever the "White Stag" incorporated version of Woodbadge was.

2. I am a graduate of and was youth staff for all three phases of youth leadership development as taught by the White Stag program (80's). (At least the Northern California one as founded by Betheny, et. al)

3. It is largely because of comments like these that while I will promote Woodbadge for other leaders looking for great training - I cannot bring myself to take the course.

 

The actual White Stag program never de-emphasized Scoutcraft.  If the Wood badge program got that from adopting White Stag's approach to the "Competencies of Leadership" then Woodbadge took home the wrong message.

 

I learned Scoutcraft really well in White Stag - I still use both the Scoutcraft I learned and those leadership competencies I learned nearly every day of my life.  In White Stag, "hurdles" are used to practice BOTH the scoutcraft skills needed to overcome the challenge AND the leadership skills needed to organize and conduct overcoming the challenge.  The two went hand in hand.

 

I have never understood the animosity of Woodbadge participants against White Stag but it seems to have persisted long after several subsequent evolutions of the Woodbadge program.

[qwazse]

Time to lasso a tangent ...

I know some mods have asked for this thread to stay more on topic and this is a tangent, but I feel compelled to speak out.

...

I have never understood the animosity of Woodbadge participants against White Stag but it seems to have persisted long after several subsequent evolutions of the Woodbadge program.

Chalk it up to intolerance over transitioning?

[Ranman328]

I was not sure if you were indicating that I was calling TG a medical issue or if that was a general statement.  My intent with the statement was simply that I wanted to know about any kind of issue about any of the youth I serve if that issue has the potential to effect how I do my program or safety issues related to it.

 

I was an EMT, I develop medical devices for a career.  There are still inherent medical needs that a biological female may (TG male or not) need to be treated differently.  It is not about not treating them as a male as much as it is about providing appropriate medical care.  Thus I want (and feel like I need) to know if one of my youth are TG.  For any other aspect of the program, I am perfectly willing to treat them how they want to be treated.  If the parent's aren't good with that (after all I really do have what I think are the best interest of the child at heart) then I am not the right leader for their child and one of the two of us will not be moving on to the next round.

 

Even the statements from National in regards to finding a unit that best serves the child's needs identifies that not all units will be able to handle this - the reasons for that are are more than I could list with religious affiliations being only one; poor or insufficient leadership and/or not reasonable skilled in serving youth (we'll question later if that person should be a leader at all), etc.  We cannot find a unit that serves their needs if we don't know what those needs are.

 

Personally, as long as the parents were working with me, I think I could handle it as a leader, and I expect the units I am most closely associate with (none are church sponsored) would be welcoming (youth, adult leaders, and parents).

 

In cub scouts, we may not figure it out if we aren't told; but by Boy Scouts we'll probably know - told or not.

 

Unfortunately, I also think you are probably (very) low on the loss/replace ratio.

 

It wasn't necessarily your exact comment but a collection of comments discussing the medical and psychological aspect of the transgender scouts that it was neither.  Me personally, I think this is a bad idea.  There too many things that can go wrong.  As most of us are aware, the BSA is full of lawyers that will find a way not to represent us Volunteers.  If anyone doesn't think there are going to be people to "test" this new policy specifically to file a lawsuit, they are sadly mistaken.  Look how fast they were to file a law suit over being asked to leave because of the old policy.  I was a paramedic for many years and am all too aware of medical issues.  My point is that WE as LEADERS according to the NEW policy will not know if that scout is a biological female or biological male ONLY what they put on the application which will be a boy.  We are to treat them as a male.  I will guarantee you the first time someone is treated anything other than a "boy", here come the lawyers.  Plain and simple.

[RememberSchiff]

Allow me to argue.

 

This is a reactive and likely interim decision. The BSA should have allowed local units the "option" to remove gender identity from membership requirements. In a week, there will be another lawsuit arguing that if a transgender (biological) girl can join then a biological girl should as well.

 

David CO makes a good point about requiring female leaders in units.

 

One person tents next.

Feb 3.

 

The National Organization for Women issued a statement urging the youth organization to allow girls to join.

 

NOW cited the efforts of a 15-year-old New York City girl to emulate her older brother, who is an Eagle Scout.

 

The group released a statement urging the federal government to “prohibit any federal support for the Boy Scouts until the organization ends its discriminatory ban against girls.â€

 

“The U.S. is one of the only countries in the world that doesn’t offer the opportunity for co-ed scouting for our youth,†said NOW New York President Sonia Ossorio. “By enabling young girls and boys to learn formative skills side-by-side, Scouting can best offer empowerment for all young people to develop into confident leaders.â€

 

Boy Scouts communications director Effie Delimarkos said the BSA, which has some coed programs, views boys-only programs as a fundamental cornerstone of its mission.

 

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/02/09/womens-group-calls-on-boy-scouts-to-allow-girls-to-join/

http://nownyc.org/press-releases/national-organization-women-calls-boy-scouts-america-end-discriminatory-policies-let-girls-join/

[qwazse]

NOW cited the efforts of a 15-year-old New York City girl to emulate her older brother, who is an Eagle Scout.

 

further down in the statement they quote from the young lady's petition "I cannot change my gender to fit the Boy Scouts’ standards, ..."

 

To which BSA may reply, "can't? Or, won't?"

[RememberSchiff]

further down in the statement they quote from the young lady's petition "I cannot change my gender to fit the Boy Scouts’ standards, ..."

 

To which BSA may reply, "can't? Or, won't?"

 

Yeah, maybe the marketing pitch will be If you are a boy, plan to be a boy, or even just want to be one of the boys at times ...you can be a Boy Scout.

 

I think it will be another PR problem for BSA if the first female Eagle Scout is transgender. Use leadership to be proactive or be reactive and manage lawsuits?

 

Another $0.02