Transgender policy change

[Back Pack]

Did I just read that someone wrote bsa had no policy against transgender youth? I believe it was written in the name of the organization one was joining. It's pretty evident. Next we are going to claim the NFL governs baseball or Chipote does Italian food.

[fred johnson]

I nominate Summer Camp Merit Badge mills - inherently untrustworthy scamming -, and disappearance of accurate descriptions of the Patrol Method as the two most pernicious failures by BSA in the last generation or two.

 

LOL ... I agree.  We each have our hot button reasons BSA has had trouble.  I have several.  I'll nominate one right now.  

 

I nominate merit badge worksheets and merit badge lectures as the cause.  I've seen dozens of scouts that never want to do another merit badge sitting through two hours of pain.  If you are taking a sailing badge, most of the time should be sailing.  If you are doing physical fitness, you should be exercising.  Scouts love to "do" thinks.  Most don't like to sit and listen to powerpoint presentation for hours. 

[ianwilkins]

LOL ... I agree.  We each have our hot button reasons BSA has had trouble.  I have several.  I'll nominate one right now.  

 

I nominate merit badge worksheets and merit badge lectures as the cause.  I've seen dozens of scouts that never want to do another merit badge sitting through two hours of pain.  If you are taking a sailing badge, most of the time should be sailing.  If you are doing physical fitness, you should be exercising.  Scouts love to "do" thinks.  Most don't like to sit and listen to powerpoint presentation for hours. 

 

I thought the whole premise* of Scouting was learning by doing?

 

* Okay, maybe not the whole premise.

[Cambridgeskip]

A bit off topic, so sorry for the derailment.  But is this a problem with US Scouting / BSA, in that we have no (few?) real scout spokesman or role models, that scouts actually want to emulate?  Of course we have scouts that go on to do great things, but do we have figureheads that a scout says..."gee I want to do what he does and be him."?   

 

I know of Mike Row, but does he promote his Scouting past in any kind of official position?  Any others?

 

It may be a problem but I doubt it's the whole problem.

 

When an organisation is losing members when historically it has been popular I would be very wary of picking out one issue, pointing at it and saying that that is the problem. It may be part of it but unlikely to the be the whole thing. If you look at scouts in the UK in the late 90s you could have put the coolest person in the world up front as a spokesman and it wouldn't have done any good. That's not to say it didn't need a good front man, it badly did, but there were too many other issues.

 

One issue I have seen with some scout websites, in many different countries, is that when I have seen their website the first picture you often see is of some kind of award ceremony with smartly uniformed youth or adults getting some kind of award indoors. Now that's all very well for the person receiving the award. They've worked hard and deserve some kind or recognition. But its preaching to the converted. In the 21st century if you want to recruit then the first thing a non member should see is a message for them. Do McDonalds use their employee of the month on any of its adverts? Of course not. They show people enjoying their product. Same thing needs to happen with scout websites. Show people enjoying the product. Kids climbing, canoeing, burning things. This is one of my favourite photos that I've taken of a scout event. The look on the face of the kid in the middle. Magic! And that's what the kids sign up for.

 

Again though don't assume because I've spotted something that it's the whole answer. It won't be. But it might be part of it.

[DuctTape]

LOL ... I agree.  We each have our hot button reasons BSA has had trouble.  I have several.  I'll nominate one right now.  

 

I nominate merit badge worksheets and merit badge lectures as the cause.  I've seen dozens of scouts that never want to do another merit badge sitting through two hours of pain.  If you are taking a sailing badge, most of the time should be sailing.  If you are doing physical fitness, you should be exercising.  Scouts love to "do" thinks.  Most don't like to sit and listen to powerpoint presentation for hours.

 

 

Agreed. The entirety of the mb process has the potential to be great, but it has devolved into schoolwork and checklists. It is a shame, the boys lose out on so much.

[Col. Flagg]

One issue I have seen with some scout websites, in many different countries, is that when I have seen their website the first picture you often see is of some kind of award ceremony with smartly uniformed youth or adults getting some kind of award indoors. Now that's all very well for the person receiving the award. They've worked hard and deserve some kind or recognition. But its preaching to the converted. In the 21st century if you want to recruit then the first thing a non member should see is a message for them.

 

Good point. At our winter district awards dinner, where we recognize the Eagles (among other awards), the event was so focused on the adult awards (and back slapping) that the Scouts were bored witless. Our Eagle Scouts were wondering why they gave up 2+ hours of a Friday night just to walk across a stage for 5 seconds and have a bunch of adults clap.

 

The adult awards? Must have been 40+ awards given out one...by...one; even if there were 8-10 of the same award. Message to Eagles: Take your girlfriend out or hang with your mates on Friday night instead of wasting it on this ceremony. That was the talk in my car among 8 Eagles on the way home....that, and $25 wasted on cold chicken fingers and runny mashed potatoes. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[TAHAWK]

Glad you have access to better numbers than I could find via Google.

 

But you simply reinforce my point.  It is not a simple a "Co-ed and UP!"  Other things go on, such as da' Bear Factor.

 

And there are broad social trends.  In the U.S., membership in bowling leagues, garden clubs, parent-teacher associations, and fraternal organizations are on a decades-long downward trend.  Yes, adults, but if the adults won't join there is no way to take the kids those adults would have supported had they joined. Then there is the youth fascination with apps.

[MattR]

To paraphrase James Carville, "It's the program, stupid."

 

Fixing MBs, fixing adult training, fixing the image, focusing on kids having fun while learning self sufficiency. I agree with all of these and that there are lots of things to work on. However, there's one place to start and that would be national. Talk about sclerotic. There is either no leadership or they have no idea what the program is about. There probably are some people there that have been in scouts and stay connected, but my guess is there are a lot of turf wars going on and no focus on the big picture. Honestly, if they'd find another job for the one guy that has to put a requirement about career options in every single MB then the collective time wasted by kids on mindless nonsense would decrease by a million hours a year. A much bigger issue is training parents in outdoor skills so they can take scouts on trips.

[fred johnson]

Agreed. The entirety of the mb process has the potential to be great, but it has devolved into schoolwork and checklists. It is a shame, the boys lose out on so much.

 

Hugely agree.  IMHO, merit badge process has become lame.  For most of the badges, I can't help but agree when I hear they didn't get much out of the badge. 

 

Horseback should be about riding, taking care of the horse, shoveling #### and learning at the same time.  You should never have to fill out the form to earn the badge.  I really question whether even buying the merit badge book is worthwhile.  IMHO, the merit badge book should be more for the counselor so that they have a guide to the requirements and the level of content expected for the badge.  Or if a scout is stuck learning it on their own.  But a scout learning it on their own while good, defeats the mentor ship and fellowship of the merit badge process.  

 

Same with canoeing.  Show a kid the requirements for the canoeing badge and I'd hope the kid would say thanks but no thanks.  Those requirements should be for the merit badge counselor, not for the scout.  

 

There was a local scoutmaster who was old fashioned.  His troop did a two day canoe trip every year.  Any scout who had not earned the canoe badge before automatically received the badge at the end of the trip.  Knowing him, I bet he just kept mentioning all the details of the badge throughout the trip as a continual learning.  I bet those scouts when asked how they earned it or what they learned could answer with a whole lot of content.

Edited February 7, 2017 by fred johnson

[perdidochas]

Good point. At our winter district awards dinner, where we recognize the Eagles (among other awards), the event was so focused on the adult awards (and back slapping) that the Scouts were bored witless. Our Eagle Scouts were wondering why they gave up 2+ hours of a Friday night just to walk across a stage for 5 seconds and have a bunch of adults clap.

 

The adult awards? Must have been 40+ awards given out one...by...one; even if there were 8-10 of the same award. Message to Eagles: Take your girlfriend out or hang with your mates on Friday night instead of wasting it on this ceremony. That was the talk in my car among 8 Eagles on the way home....that, and $25 wasted on cold chicken fingers and runny mashed potatoes. 

That's my one problem with my fellow Scout leaders. They love to give awards to each other and their sons.  It gets old watching the same 5 or 6 people get award after award. This is even worse in the OA. 

[TAHAWK]

"Earning merit badges should be Scout initiated, Scout researched, and Scout learned. It should be hands-on and interactive, and should not be modeled after a typical school classroom setting. Instead, it is meant to be an active program so enticing to young men that they will want to take responsibility for their own full participation."

 

BSA, Guide to Advancement

[perdidochas]

Hugely agree.  IMHO, merit badge process has become lame.  For most of the badges, I can't help but agree when I hear they didn't get much out of the badge. 

 

Horseback should be about riding, taking care of the horse, shoveling #### and learning at the same time.  You should never have to fill out the form to earn the badge.  I really question whether even buying the merit badge book is worthwhile.  IMHO, the merit badge book should be more for the counselor so that they have a guide to the requirements and the level of content expected for the badge.  Or if a scout is stuck learning it on their own.  But a scout learning it on their own while good, defeats the mentor ship and fellowship of the merit badge process.  

 

Same with canoeing.  Show a kid the requirements for the canoeing badge and I'd hope the kid would say thanks but no thanks.  Those requirements should be for the merit badge counselor, not for the scout.  

 

There was a local scoutmaster who was old fashioned.  His troop did a two day canoe trip every year.  Any scout who had not earned the canoe badge before automatically received the badge at the end of the trip.  Knowing him, I bet he just kept mentioning all the details of the badge throughout the trip as a continual learning.  I bet those scouts when asked how they earned it or what they learned could answer with a whole lot of content.

We have a local scoutmaster who did the above on a two day canoeing trip--do all the requirements for Canoeing merit badge. Guess how many boys got the Canoeing merit badge from the trip?  After the trip, the SM told his Scouts that they did all the requirements for the MB, but since none of them had asked for a blue card beforehand, nobody getst the MB. 

[TAHAWK]

Requirements complete while a Scout apply to earning the MB even if Blue Card not signed by SM at the time the requirements were completed.  This has been discussed before. The SM does not control when a MB is being earned; the Scout does.  The "local scoutmaster" is misinformed - at best. "[A] a boy may begin working on a merit badge at any time after he is registered."  "For example, nights already camped as a Boy Scout, or coins or stamps already collected, would count toward their respective badges."  "A few merit badges have certain restrictions, but otherwise any registered Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or qualified Venturer or Sea Scout may work on any of them at any time."   BSA, Guide to Advancement at pp. 43-44.

Edited February 7, 2017 by TAHAWK

[Col. Flagg]

Requirements complete while a Scout apply to earning the MB even if Blue Card not signed by SM at the time the requirements were completed.  This has been discussed before. The SM does not control when a MB is being earned; the Scout does.  The "local scoutmaster" is misinformed - at best. "[A] a boy may begin working on a merit badge at any time after he is registered."  "For example, nights already camped as a Boy Scout, or coins or stamps already collected, would count toward their respective badges."  "A few merit badges have certain restrictions, but otherwise any registered Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or qualified Venturer or Sea Scout may work on any of them at any time."   BSA, Guide to Advancement at pp. 43-44.

 

Isn't some of this up to the MBC? For example, if a Scout goes to Philmont and does the trail cooking in 2010, but does not request a blue card until 2012 and meets with an MBC for Cooking in 2014, the MBC does not have to take the 4 year old work if they feel it has been too long. Right? I could be wrong but I seem to remember somewhere that the final word was up to the MBC, no?

[John-in-KC]

Moderator's Friendly Note:

 

If you wish to discuss a specific topic, please use the appropriate forum.  This thread is about the matter of the National Council allowing families who identify their child as male, regardless of birth gender, to join the Boy Scouting (in particular) program.

 

Thanks, in advance.