Transgender policy change

[TAHAWK]

There goes majority of the campouts.   I had a hard time getting an Adult of any sex to come on troop campouts.  The best way would if you want your TG to come camping you need to come with.  

Just how many trans kids do you think will be joining BSA units?  They are a tiny, tiny minority.  Advocacy groups CLAIM it's .3% of the population - three in a thousand.  What percentage of youth join BSA units?  Under 5%  We are talking small numbers.

 

Lousy program is the big problem, but few get excited about that, especially at the top levels of leadership.

 

BSA needs to sort out the YPT implications NOW - if it is up to it, so we can get on with saving what's left of Scouting.

 

 

Many of the things said here about the end of Boy Scouting were said when females were first officially allowed to be uniformed Scouters - over thirty years ago.

[EmberMike]

...Many of the things said here about the end of Boy Scouting were said when females were first officially allowed to be uniformed Scouters - over thirty years ago.

 

Same things were said a few years ago when we were debating the gay membership issue. And here we are again, with more doom and gloom predictions. Scouting will be fine. For as little impact as allowing gay members has had on the organization, allowing trans kids to join will have even less impact. 

 

As TAHAWk mentions, program is and has been the problem. One thing I think we can all appreciate this time around is that this didn't drag on for years. The decision was quick, like it or not it's done and we move on. All we can decide is if we're moving on within the BSA or moving on away from it. 

[David CO]

Same things were said a few years ago when we were debating the gay membership issue. And here we are again, with more doom and gloom predictions. Scouting will be fine. For as little impact as allowing gay members has had on the organization, allowing trans kids to join will have even less impact. 

 

As TAHAWk mentions, program is and has been the problem. One thing I think we can all appreciate this time around is that this didn't drag on for years. The decision was quick, like it or not it's done and we move on. All we can decide is if we're moving on within the BSA or moving on away from it. 

 

No, there is a third choice.  We can oppose it.  We can work to change it.

 

I can remember when Pres. Obama said that Republicans will learn to live with ACA.  That didn't happen, and the new administration is now poised to repeal it.

 

You talk as if every conservative policy is temporary, and every liberal policy change is permanent.

 

This decision didn't drag on for years, but the effort to change it undoubtedly will.  It is not done, and we will not move on.

Edited February 2, 2017 by David CO

[Rick_in_CA]

A scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other scout. That is what we are losing.

And this is something I just can't understand. How are we loosing this? If a troop over there has a trans scout in their unit, you can't be their friend anymore? Is that what you are saying?

[TAHAWK]

So I'm a liberal now?  My liberal friends will be stunned to hear that.

 

But you are certainly entitled to work to change the decision.  Go for it.  My liberal friends would approve; it's all they talk about for weeks.

 

I wonder who made the decision and how.  Was the Board consulted or was this an executive order?  

Edited February 2, 2017 by TAHAWK

[NJCubScouter]

BSA used to also provide scouts with a sense of shared values and common purpose.  A scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other scout. That is what we are losing.

I see no sign that we are losing the sense of shared values or common purpose, or that we have lost any of it. Twelve points of the Scout Law and duty to God, country, others and self, 16 check-marks worth of shared values and common purposes, all fully intact. I see a BSA that is now moving past the distractions created by issues that have nothing to do with these shared values, so it can refocus on bringing the shared values to more youth.

[NJCubScouter]

So I'm a liberal now?  My liberal friends will be stunned to hear that.

As will those of us who have been reading your posts in this forum for more than 10 years. I'm absolutely shocked to hear it.

[Eagle94-A1]

We got a lot of  Scouters who are concerned about this policy change. I know my district lost a lot of district level leaders when the policy change occurred regarding gays. In fact my district had 3 active committee members as a result of the last policy change until today. Now  have 2.

[TAHAWK]

The LDS published response is that they are studying the implications but have been assured that it is a local option matter.

[Sentinel947]

The LDS published response is that they are studying the implications but have been assured that it is a local option matter.

This has been my understanding on it as well. I know exactly what my COs wishes are.

[numbersnerd]

I see no sign that we are losing the sense of shared values or common purpose, or that we have lost any of it. Twelve points of the Scout Law and duty to God, country, others and self, 16 check-marks worth of shared values and common purposes, all fully intact. I see a BSA that is now moving past the distractions created by issues that have nothing to do with these shared values, so it can refocus on bringing the shared values to more youth.

 

Seems to be a case of selective reading, which I have noticed is a common theme with some individuals here.

 

He said, in response to the statement that the BSA should provide program and structure and that CO's provide the values, that we are in danger of losing that shared set of values if the choices are left to the indovidual CO's.

 

IOW, some might choose to continue a value-centric program, others might turn it into a camping club, others might install an incongruent set of values from the ones most of us can agree upon.

Fracturing of the program is a very real danger and introduces inconsistency and lessens the ability to continue as a cohesive and valued program.

[F-P]

And this is something I just can't understand. How are we loosing this? If a troop over there has a trans scout in their unit, you can't be their friend anymore? Is that what you are saying?

 

Well said Rick.  Friendly is not the first word I thought of while reading this thread.

[SSScout]

Awhile back, one of us listed a whole lot of "maginal"  kids.  Kids to be "dealt with".

Some years ago, (not too many, really) some of those "types" of kids (boy or girl, however defined)  would have been shunned, avoided, denied friendship, education,  looked on as "strange" and perhaps even suitable for institutionalization . 

In a certain European country, not so long ago,  these kids might have been tagged for extermination. Humane extermination, for the good of society, for the good of the "race".  

 What was it I heard, somewhere, that a person (age limit?) should be judged by their "character" and not by some accident of birth. 

Is it really necessary to demand a kid be as we would like them to be, to the exclusion of any other "thing"?  

I sub teach. Occasionally, I am called to sub in the "special ed" section. Something made these kids the way they are. They did not pick out their parents, or genetic make up or whatever accident of birth led them to the way they are.  My job, as a teacher, is to try to give these kids the best opportunity to obtain access to the world around them. Some of them will never read Tom Sawyer or even dress themselves. But they can be allowed to be the best that they can be.  Now, where did I hear that motto?  Be all that they can be. Ummmm. 

Can a child choose their gender?  Perhaps the genetics is incomplete , somehow. How are we to judge?  Is it possible to "sense" what one should be, rather than what one is ?   I can't say, having never felt  forced to make that choice .

 

True story:  In January of 1965 (working on my stegosaurus husbandry merit badge), my Troop went camping , in the snow, in freezing temperatures, with another Troop.  When we set up our fire place (rocks, bricks) to cook on, the fire eventually melted the frozen ground beneath such that the fire place fell in on itself.  We had,  early on, in our planning, decided to share the duties.  Fire wood, water hauling, cooking ,  campfire skits, etc., all were split up between us Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts in the other Troop.  That's right.  Learned a lot from them.  They actually had women who camped and knew our Troop leaders.  I have never seen or heard of the like since.  When we went back to school the next week, we did smile and nod to each other.

Why did our leaders arrange this?  Were we boys supposed to learn from them girls?  Vice versa?   I don't remember at this distance any such reasoning.

I suspect it was the boy leaders who decided.  I do know now, that such outdoors girl scouting is rather rare, at least nowadays.   If a girl would want that experience, they might well desire to join Boy Scouts.

I sympathize with the idea that BSA has suffered from a "bait and switch"  problem.  Kids join for the image they have heard and thought about and are, instead of camping, hiking, rock climbing, canoeing, are given classroom stuff,  "character building" stuff and  "sit down and listen" stuff. 

 

See you on the trail?

[David CO]

And this is something I just can't understand. How are we loosing this? If a troop over there has a trans scout in their unit, you can't be their friend anymore? Is that what you are saying?

 

The moderator has just reminded us of of the "pinned" post at the top of this forum drawing the line as to what we can and cannot say about youth members.  I think you are trying to bait me into stepping over that line.  

 

For that reason, I will decline to answer your question.

Edited February 2, 2017 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

Seems to be a case of selective reading, which I have noticed is a common theme with some individuals here.

 

He said, in response to the statement that the BSA should provide program and structure and that CO's provide the values, that we are in danger of losing that shared set of values if the choices are left to the indovidual CO's.

 

IOW, some might choose to continue a value-centric program, others might turn it into a camping club, others might install an incongruent set of values from the ones most of us can agree upon.

Fracturing of the program is a very real danger and introduces inconsistency and lessens the ability to continue as a cohesive and valued program.

 

Over the years, BSA has allowed some units -- and Councils -- to ignore supposedly mandatory program features.  Nothing new about that.  Has gone on for decades.  We have had adult-run camping clubs, adult-run non-camping clubs, adult-run advancement mills, and the "youth-led troop method." Can't blame that on the last few years.  

 

The Motto, Slogan, Oath and Law are still the same as is the Handbook.  Officially, those are the "values."