Transgender policy change

[David CO]

Fred,

 

Conservatives will never accept this and move on.  We have never accepted abortion and moved on.  We have never accepted homosexuality and moved on.  We will never accept bi-gender and move on.

 

I think you should be honest about this.  You know that we will never move on.

[Scoutmaster Teddy]

BSA Announcement from Chief Scout Executive Michael Surbaugh

 

 

Next up on the chopping block "A Scout is Reverent." Wait for a couple of lawsuit threats and God is out.

[krypton_son]

SO again I will tilt at windmills. . .

This policy applies to BOYS who live, act and identify as BOYS (regardless of genitalia).

IF you get a TG scout applying to your Troop, you may know that they are TG but you also may not. 

If it is up to the TG Scout enrolling, they most likely would NOT want you to know.

THEY ARE A BOY.

THEY WANT TO BE TREATED AS A BOY.

TREAT THEM AS A BOY.

 

The rest is adult crap.

 

Except that they are not a boy.  And they never truly can be.  This is a program for boys only.  To help them become men.  If a person can never become a man, then this is not something they should be involved in.  I understand that someone might want to be included, there have been girls who desperately want to be in Boy Scouts and earn Eagle.  I feel bad for them, but I would not let them in.  I might love aspects of certain girls only clubs or organizations, but I would never force myself into one just because I want to be thought of as a girl.   I understand that some people think that they can just "feel" like a boy and think that they are one, but in reality that's not how it works. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by krypton_son

[tnmule20]

SO again I will tilt at windmills. . .

This policy applies to BOYS who live, act and identify as BOYS (regardless of genitalia).

IF you get a TG scout applying to your Troop, you may know that they are TG but you also may not. 

If it is up to the TG Scout enrolling, they most likely would NOT want you to know.

THEY ARE A BOY.

THEY WANT TO BE TREATED AS A BOY.

TREAT THEM AS A BOY.

 

The rest is adult crap.

 

All well and good until female assets start to emerge and your scouts wonder what the hell has happened to Jimmy.  Well boys Jimmy is actually June.  The dude that I have become buddies with is actually a chick.  Talk about confusing.  But then again these kids nowadays are growing up with some strange stuff and it may not phase them.  It's all about pushing the "new normal".

Edited February 1, 2017 by tnmule20

[Col. Flagg]

Fred,

 

Conservatives will never accept this and move on.  We have never accepted abortion and moved on.  We have never accepted homosexuality and moved on.  We will never accept bi-gender and move on.

 

I think you should be honest about this.  You know that we will never move on.

 

I wonder if the liberals will "move on" with the repeal of Obamacare, the end of sanctuary cities and other such issues they hold dear.

[EmberMike]

Except that they are not a boy.  And they never truly can be.  This is a program for boys only.  To help them become men.  If a person can never become a man, then this is not something they should be involved in.  I understand that someone might want to be included, there have been girls who desperately want to be in Boy Scouts and earn Eagle.  I feel bad for them, but I would not let them in.  I might love aspects of certain girls only clubs or organizations, but I would never force myself into one just because I want to be thought of as a girl.   I understand that some people think that they can just "feel" like a boy and think that they are one, but in reality that's not how it works. 

 

 

The mission isn't to create "men", it's to build character, something that is not exclusive to one gender. If the military can be co-ed and still be a symbol of character, strength, even masculinity, then why not scouts? 

 

I'm really happy with this policy change. It's one that years ago I never would have thought we'd see. Lifting the ban on gay members and on transgender kids? I'm still kind of surprised it all happened. But I'm glad it did. 

 

And much like lifting the ban on gay members didn't destroy units or spell the end of the BSA, this too shall pass and everything will be just fine. 

[krypton_son]

The mission isn't to create "men", it's to build character, something that is not exclusive to one gender.

 

What?  You might want to go re-read some of the handbooks and history of the BSA.

[robert12]

The mission isn't to create "men", it's to build character, something that is not exclusive to one gender. If the military can be co-ed and still be a symbol of character, strength, even masculinity, then why not scouts? 

 

From the congressional charter of the BSA

"The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

This is the same text that is still found in the Bylaws of the BSA, chapter 1 section 2.

 

The BSAs purpose is clearly to focus on boys.

[fred johnson]

Sorry, but what? Argumentative? Not based in reality? When has a for profit company EVER prospered by pandering to the minority and going against their core membership base? 

 

BSA took a stand on gay Scouts. The membership and financial drop increased.

 

BSA took a stand on gay adults. The membership and financial drop increased. 

 

BSA took a stand on transgender girls. Just wait for the 2017 membership and finance numbers.

 

So I ask you, what good -- other than to appease those like you who think this was the "right thing" and those who were demonizing the BSA for the old policy -- have these changes done for BSA?

 

Where is the increase in membership? Where is the increase in COs? Where is the increase in financial support? That's not argumentative, that's about as real as you get.

 

Always fun to see the left avoid the hard questions and be dismissive by saying things like "augmentative" and "not based in reality". You lot always label things like that when you don't have solid, real world answers for fact-based, poignant questions.

 

You say it's a small issue with a big impact. Show me the facts that support this assumption. What has BSA gained from making these decisions. The facts support increased losses, not any gains.

 

Okay.  You made me laugh when you say "you lot" referring to me as leftist or liberal.  That's actually quite funny.  You have no clue about my politics or my opinions on transgender issues.  

 

But to be honest, that's the point.  BSA is not taking a stand.  They are leaving it to the charter org and parents.  BSA is saying if you want to be in scouts, we'll help you find a unit that will work with you.  That's not about being left or right.  It's about working with each other.  Previous stands were about taking a moral stand on values.  A stand that often contradicted the values of the very charter orgs BSA charters.  

 

BSA provides a program and structure.  Leave the value choices to the churches and the charter organizations.  They do a better job than any of us on this.  

[Col. Flagg]

The mission isn't to create "men", it's to build character, something that is not exclusive to one gender. If the military can be co-ed and still be a symbol of character, strength, even masculinity, then why not scouts? 

 

 

What?  You might want to go re-read some of the handbooks and history of the BSA.

 

From Aids to Scoutmastership with emphasis on the last part added...

 

The term “Scouting†has come to mean a system of training in citizenship, through games, for boys or girls. The girls are the important people, because when the mothers of the nation are good citizens and women of character, they will see to it that their sons are not deficient in these points. As things are, the training is needed for both sexes, and is imparted through the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides (Girl Scouts) Movements. The principles are the same for both. It is only in the details that they vary.

[Eagledad]

The mission isn't to create "men", it's to build character, something that is not exclusive to one gender. If the military can be co-ed and still be a symbol of character, strength, even masculinity, then why not scouts? 

 

. 

There is plenty of evidence that shows that genders at this age learn better in a single gender atmosphere. We've all heard, so I won't go into details.

 

As I said, the liberal reasoning is equality through mediocrity. I don't do mediocrity or political correctness. You should be honest with us as well as yourself, either you want to really develop character, or you want a camping program.

 

Barry

[Rick_in_CA]

Get real! When I was a scout and a Scoutmaster, patrols could camp without adults. They can't anymore. That is huge!

 

Watching the Canadian Scouts go through their changes and listening and participating in discussions on scouting forums the past years, I am convinced that liberals view scouting as nothing more than a "camping club".  The mission and vision statement are just noble words of distant dreams. Liberals believe in equality over personal ambition through the path of mediocrity. 

 

Changing the program so that boys can no longer have the independence to experiment with their decisions takes away the advantage that Boy Scouting has over all other youth programs. I kind of saw it when I joined as a scouter in the early 90s. New Scout Patrols (NSP) and First Class in the First Year (FCFY) forces scouts through a process of growth controlled outside of the their patrol. I can't think National did it intentionally (maybe they did, mediocrity), but they turned the growth process 180 degrees. Instead pushing scouts to act out toward their ambitions using the tools of leadership, patrol method, adventure and advancement, they are now expected to react to the tasks given them. The process of growing by making decisions was taken away. The more National makes little changes that force boys out of the arena of making personal decisions, the more the process of growth is reduced.

 

As a result, after school camping clubs.

 

My passion for the program is guiding boys to become citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Those aren't just words to me, I live it. I'll not waste my time just teaching kids how to set up a tent. 

 

Barry

Other than disagreeing with the anti-liberal dig (this is a society wide issue, not a liberal or conservative issue) - Amen Barry!

[pchadbo]

Except that they are not a boy.  And they never truly can be.  This is a program for boys only.  To help them become men.  If a person can never become a man, then this is not something they should be involved in.  I understand that someone might want to be included, there have been girls who desperately want to be in Boy Scouts and earn Eagle.  I feel bad for them, but I would not let them in.  I might love aspects of certain girls only clubs or organizations, but I would never force myself into one just because I want to be thought of as a girl.   I understand that some people think that they can just "feel" like a boy and think that they are one, but in reality that's not how it works. 

I pray that you never have to see the anguish, self loathing, depression, confusion and struggles, that a transgender person feels, having watched it first hand, having it leading to the death of a very good friend at her own hand, I know what she went through.  Essentially disowned by her family, shunned by the public, and called every name you can think of, I can only think that if this policy change allows ONE youth to LIVE to be happy and well adjusted as an adult, then it is a success.

 

This is not a choice that they make.  They do not choose to be outcasts in society, they do not choose to be ridiculed, they do not choose to be told just deal with it. A little understanding and compassion goes a long way.

 

A Scout is Kind

[krypton_son]

I pray that you never have to see the anguish, self loathing, depression, confusion and struggles, that a transgender person feels, having watched it first hand, having it leading to the death of a very good friend at her own hand, I know what she went through.  Essentially disowned by her family, shunned by the public, and called every name you can think of, I can only think that if this policy change allows ONE youth to LIVE to be happy and well adjusted as an adult, then it is a success.

 

This is not a choice that they make.  They do not choose to be outcasts in society, they do not choose to be ridiculed, they do not choose to be told just deal with it. A little understanding and compassion goes a long way.

 

A Scout is Kind

 

I would have to disagree.  I would love to look like a model or have the ability to fly but it's never going to happen.  I can't just decide that I feel like I can fly and then jump off a building and have it be true.  Sorry, life doesn't work that way.  I have no problem with people who decide they want to be a different gender or race or animal (Yes, that happens) but don't force that on others.  Just because they want to be a boy doesn't mean that they are.  And it sure as heck doesn't mean that others need to accept that.  I would never force myself into a group that I don't belong in just because I want to be in it.

[Rick_in_CA]

I think BSA has made a terrible mistake.  I think it has turned left, just as the country has turned right.  I think it is BSA that is seeking to isolate itself by rejecting the values of half the country.

But you want it to reject the values of the other half of the country right? I believe the BSA is trying to move away from rejecting either half. The BSA should not be a conservative or liberal organization, Christian or non-Christian. No one group "owns" it.

 

That was the big mistake of the Dale decision. The BSA decided to pick a side and that hurt it (and betrayed all of the scouts and scouters that weren't "on" that side). Now the BSA is trying to fix that mistake. This is why Trail Life exists. It's explicitly conservative and Christian (and only the right kind of Christian at that).