Transgender policy change

[bearess]

I agree that there needs to be thought and planning around what to do if a youth transitions back to their assigned gender. As far as YPT, I think two deep leadership would cover you in any situation.

The period/breast talk is overblown. Most young men who have or are transitioning are working with a doctor on puberty suppression.

 

As for the kids... I can't speak for everybody's kids. However, I think we are over estimating how much they care. My sons' PE teacher was born female, and has fully transitioned to living as a man. They know about the transition because he grew up in this community. He also was roommates with my sisters' boyfriend. They do not care. He's a fantastic PE teacher- they care that they get to play a tag game for warmup, that they get to do a juggling unit, that they get their "toe tokens" for engaging in physical activity at home. A girl on my son's hockey team has asked the other kids to refer to him as a boy. My son doesn't care. He cares if he passes, if he moves the puck down the ice, if he scores. Oh, and the kid is an amazing dancer. My son is jealous of his sweet moves during their warmup mixtape. I suspect that, without adult interference, most kids will do that. If adults focus on delivering a quality program, the kids will figure out a lot of the other stuff.

[krypton_son]

OK, If anyone was insulted, offended, or felt I was un-Scoutlike in any way: Mea Culpa Maxima.

I am sorry.

Paul

 

I believe the remark was made towards me.  I took no offence whatsoever to it.  Just one person stating his opinion and using a word that is misunderstood by so many nowadays.  We have differing opinions and you are welcome to voice yours. 

[gumbymaster]

I would have to disagree.  I would love to look like a model or have the ability to fly but it's never going to happen.  I can't just decide that I feel like I can fly and then jump off a building and have it be true.  Sorry, life doesn't work that way.  I have no problem with people who decide they want to be a different gender or race or animal (Yes, that happens) but don't force that on others.  Just because they want to be a boy doesn't mean that they are.  And it sure as heck doesn't mean that others need to accept that.  I would never force myself into a group that I don't belong in just because I want to be in it.

 

@@krypton_son,

 

Judging from some of your other posts, you seem to be one of the most laid back, non judgemental, and open minded people on this forum.  But I feel a need to disagree with you on this one.

 

For Everyone ...

 

Let us start with the premise that (as many here believe):

1. God has a hand in each of his creations, and that we are the way God wanted us to be

 

There is no denying that the TG boys (in this case) are born with Female genitalia (genetic female).  For many, that should end the discussion, but bare with me ...

 

In the case of many (but not all) TG, the body is actually producing the wrong hormones, think producing testosterone instead of estrogen, etc. (biologically male-leaning).  This is not something that the individual chose - they were made that way; and very few would willingly choose this for themselves.  They believe that they are male because everything inside of their body, except the genitalia and other (some but not all) pubescent developments, are telling them that they are male.

 

Medical science can't really fix (reverse) the problem, and no amount of "choosing" will change them.  Medicine can help complete the process.

 

Some may then believe that God has chosen this as a trial for this individual to overcome (i.e. Job), and that giving into the feelings/gender disphoria is a failure of the individual to reach God's expectations.  I don't believe this, but there are those here that will.

 

Even if this is the case, that leads to:

2. Punishment is for God to decide (i.e. Heaven vs. Hell), not mortal man. 

 

As such, we should not be heaping extra challenges on these already over burdened individuals.  We should be, to use the term, "Christian", and be kind and understanding to their plight.  To help them where we can.  It is not our role to stone them and speed them on their way to God's judgement.

 

We should always be Courteous, Kind, and Helpful to those that need help, support, and understanding.  This doesn't mean we have to agree with it; but following our oath and law is not condoning the behavior (if you believe that it is behavior), it is being true to what we want to represent.

 

---

 

OK, maybe we hold a position of "I don't care what you want to be, .... as long as I don't have to be exposed to it."  As the Dale case affirmed, as a private organization we have the right of association, and CAN choose to not associate with those who are different from us ... for what ever reason, their race, their language, their national origin, their gender, their religion, their sexuality, their age, their politics, their socioeconomic level, their intelligence, etc.

 

Sometimes there are some very valid reasons for the choice

1. We want to be boy scouts because we believe that boys will better develop in an environment catered to their needs, and not to a co-educational mean.  ok.

2. We want boys to have a spiritual or religious center, because we believe that that will be most in-line with the values we are trying to build or develop. ok  We could be more specific about religious beliefs, but we have chosen not to.

3. We have (as a movement, not as individuals) chosen not to discriminate on the other points because either (a) continuing to do so would be more of a distraction than a help in achieving our goals; (b) the societal consequences of doing so would put too much risk on our ability to provide any program; © they are part of the collective group we want to associate with; and/or (d) it was just the right thing to do.

 

A Scout is Clean - A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by high standards. He helps keep his home and community clean.

 

Do we really believe that those we are choosing (or would like to choose) not to associate with do not have high standards?  Otherwise, our oath or law doesn't really provide a reason not to.

 

----

 

Is this a good decision for TG boys; absolutely.  It is one less stone thrown at them, and possibly even the start of a helping hand.  They believe they are boys, wish to live as a boy, which means that they will eventually become men; and we can help them to become good men.

 

Is this a good decision for the BSA: probably not.  Members who individually choose not to associate will leave.  As others have stated, it will not bring in new sponsors, it will not bring in great numbers of new members (the total TG population effected is very small; PC parents who previously used this as an excuse why they could not support us will find a new reason) certainly not enough of either to offset the likely losses.  It does reduce more damage to our external reputation, but at the cost of damage to the internal reputation of the trustworthiness of the BSA organization to stand up for the values of the majority of its membership.

 

A Scout is Trustworthy. 

A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.

 

And clearly, the BSA administration is making it very difficult for the membership to depend on them - at least as far as knowing or participating in major decisions that effect everyone in the movement.

 

The BSA was in a no win situation here, as we have been, and will continue to be.

 

A Scout is Brave - A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

 

Was the organization brave because even against the ire of current members they did what was right? or

did the organization fail to be brave by not standing up for their beliefs and give into external pressure.

 

We are a diverse group and I doubt there can ever be consensus on this.

 

But in the end, while many of you will disagree, and I respect that, I think it was the right decision.

[Eagledad]

OK, If anyone was insulted, offended, or felt I was un-Scoutlike in any way: Mea Culpa Maxima.

I am sorry.

Paul

No, what I meant was that I have been scolded by the moderators for using "ignorance" in another discussions because it was misinterpreted as unscout like. 

 

Barry

[krypton_son]

@@krypton_son,

 

Judging from some of your other posts, you seem to be one of the most laid back, non judgemental, and open minded people on this forum.  But I feel a need to disagree with you on this one.

 

@@gumbymaster,  I like to think so.  I'm pretty much open to most anything.  I like everyone.  But I'll always voice my opinion if asked. When you're as ugly as I am, it's hard to be judgmental of others.

Edited February 2, 2017 by krypton_son

[HelpfulTracks]

Your whole post is excellent - I just picked this out because this is one of the big things bothering me (the other YPT issues).  WHAT THE CRAP IS WRONG WITH THE GIRL SCOUTS?????  They go camping, etc. and every time I speak with a Girl Scout leader I walk away impressed!  The GS is a great organization!!!!  So I guess - why would the BSA need to start a parallel org for girls ... let alone why does the BSA need to change to include girls???  

 

I keep thinking that this is the road we are going down - becoming a co-ed organization.  And many of the leaders I talk with think the same way.  HOWEVER - if BSA becomes co-ed, what will become of the GS organization?  Don't you think they would fight this decision?  Just curious.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Girl Scouts. But it is not for everyone, neither is Boy Scouts. But GS is structurally and programmatically different from Boy Scouts, that has pluses and minuses.

 

My daughter looked at several GS Troops. Most did not fit what she was looking for. I would say our experience with GS has been that they are more like Explorer Post or focused Venturing Crews, they have a theme they stick with. I know that is not always true, but it has been what we have experienced.

 

She looks at what my son does with Scouting, a more varied program from month to month (for example a six month stint in our program (snow sports one month, horsemanship the next, archery, wilderness survival, rifle & shotgun and water sports in successive months) and that is what she would like. 

 

It has also been difficult at times. She found a troop that was into horseback riding, which she was all about. But due to limited resources (enough horses) the troop wasn't taking in new Girl Scouts. IN at least 2 instances she found friends at school in GS and her friends were excited about doing some of the things she wanted to do, but the mothers who ran the troop were not. I volunteered to help in both cases and was politely told "no thank you." She eventually gave up on GS, but cannot wait for Venturing. We go camping and other activities together, but it is not the same as doing so with a large group of friends, like my son does with Boy Scouts. 

 

That is why I would love to see a BSA parallel for girls. 

 

As for what would happen to GS? I think it might have some impact, but again the two organizations are very different, I certainly do not think it would be the demise of GS USA

Edited February 2, 2017 by HelpfulTracks

[David CO]

So you'd say you have no common bond with other scouts from across the world? If you and yours from BSA and me and mine from UK scouts shared a campout, and some of mine were female, say, or transgender, to stick to the topic in hand, would you not consider us your fellow scouts? 

 

BSA is a corporation.  It is a business. It is a vendor.  BSA supplies my CO with some products and services, and we pay for them.  That is the extent of our relationship with BSA.  It is a business relationship.

 

We have a business relationship with many vendors.  We buy textbooks and computers and baseballs and all sorts of stuff from our vendors.  Other people buy from these vendors as well.  We don't feel any kinship with the other customers of our vendors.  Why would we?

 

Any sense of fellowship that we have may have developed, or will develop, with other scouts, scouters, and scout units is based on our having shared values and a common purpose.  It is not because we use the same vendor. 

 

So, I will answer you by saying that if you and I and our units were happen to meet, we might develop a sense of fellowship if we discovered that we have shared values and common purpose. But that fellowship would not be based on our sharing a common vendor.

[pchadbo]

@@gumbymaster,  I like to think so.  I'm pretty much open to most anything.  I like everyone.  But I'll always voice my opinion if asked. When you're as ugly as I am, it's hard to be judgmental of others.

I feel the same way!  I think sitting down for a cuppa around a campfire would be entertaining!  If you are ever in New Hampshire. . .I am buying.

[krypton_son]

I feel the same way!  I think sitting down for a cuppa around a campfire would be entertaining!  If you are ever in New Hampshire. . .I am buying.

 

Sounds like a great time to me.

[ParaSloth]

@Helpful Tracks - that post was very...helpful!  Thanks for taking the time to write.

[HelpfulTracks]

 

Let us start with the premise that (as many here believe):

1. God has a hand in each of his creations, and that we are the way God wanted us to be

 

There is no denying that the TG boys (in this case) are born with Female genitalia (genetic female).  For many, that should end the discussion, but bare with me ...

 

In the case of many (but not all) TG, the body is actually producing the wrong hormones, think producing testosterone instead of estrogen, etc. (biologically male-leaning).  This is not something that the individual chose - they were made that way; and very few would willingly choose this for themselves.  They believe that they are male because everything inside of their body, except the genitalia and other (some but not all) pubescent developments, are telling them that they are male.

 

Medical science can't really fix (reverse) the problem, and no amount of "choosing" will change them.  Medicine can help complete the process.

 

Some may then believe that God has chosen this as a trial for this individual to overcome (i.e. Job), and that giving into the feelings/gender disphoria is a failure of the individual to reach God's expectations.  I don't believe this, but there are those here that will.

 

Even if this is the case, that leads to:

2. Punishment is for God to decide (i.e. Heaven vs. Hell), not mortal man. 

 

As such, we should not be heaping extra challenges on these already over burdened individuals.  We should be, to use the term, "Christian", and be kind and understanding to their plight.  To help them where we can.  It is not our role to stone them and speed them on their way to God's judgement.

 

We should always be Courteous, Kind, and Helpful to those that need help, support, and understanding.  This doesn't mean we have to agree with it; but following our oath and law is not condoning the behavior (if you believe that it is behavior), it is being true to what we want to represent.

 

---

 

OK, maybe we hold a position of "I don't care what you want to be, .... as long as I don't have to be exposed to it."  As the Dale case affirmed, as a private organization we have the right of association, and CAN choose to not associate with those who are different from us ... for what ever reason, their race, their language, their national origin, their gender, their religion, their sexuality, their age, their politics, their socioeconomic level, their intelligence, etc.

 

Sometimes there are some very valid reasons for the choice

1. We want to be boy scouts because we believe that boys will better develop in an environment catered to their needs, and not to a co-educational mean.  ok.

2. We want boys to have a spiritual or religious center, because we believe that that will be most in-line with the values we are trying to build or develop. ok  We could be more specific about religious beliefs, but we have chosen not to.

3. We have (as a movement, not as individuals) chosen not to discriminate on the other points because either (a) continuing to do so would be more of a distraction than a help in achieving our goals; (b) the societal consequences of doing so would put too much risk on our ability to provide any program; © they are part of the collective group we want to associate with; and/or (d) it was just the right thing to do.

 

A Scout is Clean - A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by high standards. He helps keep his home and community clean.

 

Do we really believe that those we are choosing (or would like to choose) not to associate with do not have high standards?  Otherwise, our oath or law doesn't really provide a reason not to.

 

----

 

Is this a good decision for TG boys; absolutely.  It is one less stone thrown at them, and possibly even the start of a helping hand.  They believe they are boys, wish to live as a boy, which means that they will eventually become men; and we can help them to become good men.

 

Is this a good decision for the BSA: probably not.  Members who individually choose not to associate will leave.  As others have stated, it will not bring in new sponsors, it will not bring in great numbers of new members (the total TG population effected is very small; PC parents who previously used this as an excuse why they could not support us will find a new reason) certainly not enough of either to offset the likely losses.  It does reduce more damage to our external reputation, but at the cost of damage to the internal reputation of the trustworthiness of the BSA organization to stand up for the values of the majority of its membership.

 

A Scout is Trustworthy. 

A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.

 

And clearly, the BSA administration is making it very difficult for the membership to depend on them - at least as far as knowing or participating in major decisions that effect everyone in the movement.

 

The BSA was in a no win situation here, as we have been, and will continue to be.

 

A Scout is Brave - A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

 

Was the organization brave because even against the ire of current members they did what was right? or

did the organization fail to be brave by not standing up for their beliefs and give into external pressure.

 

We are a diverse group and I doubt there can ever be consensus on this.

 

But in the end, while many of you will disagree, and I respect that, I think it was the right decision.

 

@@krypton_son,

 

Judging from some of your other posts, you seem to be one of the most laid back, non judgemental, and open minded people on this forum.  But I feel a need to disagree with you on this one.

 

For Everyone ...

 

Let us start with the premise that (as many here believe):

1. God has a hand in each of his creations, and that we are the way God wanted us to be

 

There is no denying that the TG boys (in this case) are born with Female genitalia (genetic female).  For many, that should end the discussion, but bare with me ...

 

In the case of many (but not all) TG, the body is actually producing the wrong hormones, think producing testosterone instead of estrogen, etc. (biologically male-leaning).  This is not something that the individual chose - they were made that way; and very few would willingly choose this for themselves.  They believe that they are male because everything inside of their body, except the genitalia and other (some but not all) pubescent developments, are telling them that they are male.

 

Medical science can't really fix (reverse) the problem, and no amount of "choosing" will change them.  Medicine can help complete the process.

 

Some may then believe that God has chosen this as a trial for this individual to overcome (i.e. Job), and that giving into the feelings/gender disphoria is a failure of the individual to reach God's expectations.  I don't believe this, but there are those here that will.

 

Even if this is the case, that leads to:

2. Punishment is for God to decide (i.e. Heaven vs. Hell), not mortal man. 

 

As such, we should not be heaping extra challenges on these already over burdened individuals.  We should be, to use the term, "Christian", and be kind and understanding to their plight.  To help them where we can.  It is not our role to stone them and speed them on their way to God's judgement.

 

We should always be Courteous, Kind, and Helpful to those that need help, support, and understanding.  This doesn't mean we have to agree with it; but following our oath and law is not condoning the behavior (if you believe that it is behavior), it is being true to what we want to represent.

 

---

 

OK, maybe we hold a position of "I don't care what you want to be, .... as long as I don't have to be exposed to it."  As the Dale case affirmed, as a private organization we have the right of association, and CAN choose to not associate with those who are different from us ... for what ever reason, their race, their language, their national origin, their gender, their religion, their sexuality, their age, their politics, their socioeconomic level, their intelligence, etc.

 

Sometimes there are some very valid reasons for the choice

1. We want to be boy scouts because we believe that boys will better develop in an environment catered to their needs, and not to a co-educational mean.  ok.

2. We want boys to have a spiritual or religious center, because we believe that that will be most in-line with the values we are trying to build or develop. ok  We could be more specific about religious beliefs, but we have chosen not to.

3. We have (as a movement, not as individuals) chosen not to discriminate on the other points because either (a) continuing to do so would be more of a distraction than a help in achieving our goals; (b) the societal consequences of doing so would put too much risk on our ability to provide any program; © they are part of the collective group we want to associate with; and/or (d) it was just the right thing to do.

 

A Scout is Clean - A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by high standards. He helps keep his home and community clean.

 

Do we really believe that those we are choosing (or would like to choose) not to associate with do not have high standards?  Otherwise, our oath or law doesn't really provide a reason not to.

 

----

 

Is this a good decision for TG boys; absolutely.  It is one less stone thrown at them, and possibly even the start of a helping hand.  They believe they are boys, wish to live as a boy, which means that they will eventually become men; and we can help them to become good men.

 

Is this a good decision for the BSA: probably not.  Members who individually choose not to associate will leave.  As others have stated, it will not bring in new sponsors, it will not bring in great numbers of new members (the total TG population effected is very small; PC parents who previously used this as an excuse why they could not support us will find a new reason) certainly not enough of either to offset the likely losses.  It does reduce more damage to our external reputation, but at the cost of damage to the internal reputation of the trustworthiness of the BSA organization to stand up for the values of the majority of its membership.

 

A Scout is Trustworthy. 

A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.

 

And clearly, the BSA administration is making it very difficult for the membership to depend on them - at least as far as knowing or participating in major decisions that effect everyone in the movement.

 

The BSA was in a no win situation here, as we have been, and will continue to be.

 

A Scout is Brave - A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

 

Was the organization brave because even against the ire of current members they did what was right? or

did the organization fail to be brave by not standing up for their beliefs and give into external pressure.

 

We are a diverse group and I doubt there can ever be consensus on this.

 

But in the end, while many of you will disagree, and I respect that, I think it was the right decision.

 

Not to nit pick, but I will a little 

 

Both male and female produce the hormones estrogen and androgen (testosterone being an androgen). But they are in very different amounts for the sexes. So the body isn't producing the wrong hormone, perhaps, in some cases, production out of balance for their chromosomes. 

 

Second - medicine can and does have ways for correcting imbalances. In fact in most TG instances I am aware of, hormone treatment is used to create an imbalance. i.e. males transitioning get estrogen treatment and vice versa. 

 

"2. Punishment is for God to decide (i.e. Heaven vs. Hell), not mortal man." -

 

Amen!

 

"Is this a good decision for TG boys; absolutely." 

 

Is teaching character, citizenship, fitness, leadership and the principals of the Scout Oath and Law a good thing? No, it is a great thing, regardless of sex, gender identity, race, religion, national origin etc. 

 

But we are not just talking about teaching. We are talking about how we handle a sensitive subject. Is it a good idea to support TG from a psychological perspective? I am no expert so I can not say definitively. 

 

I tend to defer to experts in areas I am not as familiar with, and this is one of those. But when I research the topic there is a wide range of thoughts about how to handle TG. I am not talking about intersex, where there is a biological discrepancy, but rather TG.

 

Some experts liken the conditions to other psychological conditions such as anorexia, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder in that the brain experiencing something different from reality. My understanding all of these things can be caused by various chemical, environment, social factors (and more). Others believe it is more helpful to embrace the gender you believe you are rather what your DNA says. 

 

So is reinforcing a belief that is counter to scientific evidence a good thing? My gut says no, but I am still studying this and trying to come to grips with it, so I will refrain from judgement for now.

 

But it is a question worth asking. 

[HelpfulTracks]

@Helpful Tracks - that post was very...helpful!  Thanks for taking the time to write.

 

My pleasure!

[TAHAWK]

Anyone here around when BSA suddenly decided to "main stream" what were then called "handicapped" Scouts?

 

One day, I suddenly had two totally blind Scouts - brothers - whose unit had been broken up.  As it turned out, the problems were few and the boys dealt with them in a way that made me proud and humble.

 

But one family - really one mom - pulled its two Scouts out and moved to another troop because it was "unfair to burden" their patrol with the two blind Scouts.  (One son had been held back a year in school so his athletic career would benefit in high school.  Very competitive.)  The SPL pronounced that the decision was "weird."

 

A few years later, the "special" troop was OK again, rechartered, and the brothers went back by parents' decision due to transportation issues.  Tears were shed.

[krypton_son]

Anyone here around when BSA suddenly decided to "main stream" what were then called "handicapped" Scouts?

 

One day, I suddenly had two totally blind Scouts - brothers - whose unit had been broken up.  As it turned out, the problems were few and the boys dealt with them in a way that made me proud and humble.

 

But one family - really one mom - pulled its two Scouts out and moved to another troop because it was "unfair to burden" their patrol with the two blind Scouts.  (One son had been held back a year in school so his athletic career would benefit in high school.  Very competitive.)  The SPL pronounced that the decision was "weird."

 

A few years later, the "special" troop was OK again, rechartered, and the brothers went back by parents' decision due to transportation issues.  Tears were shed.

 

I would argue that that is a very, very different situation.

[NJCubScouter]

BSA is a corporation.  It is a business. It is a vendor.  BSA supplies my CO with some products and services, and we pay for them.  That is the extent of our relationship with BSA.  It is a business relationship.

 

We have a business relationship with many vendors.  We buy textbooks and computers and baseballs and all sorts of stuff from our vendors.  Other people buy from these vendors as well.  We don't feel any kinship with the other customers of our vendors.  Why would we?

 

Perhaps one could view the relationship between your CO and the BSA as being a business relationship, although I don't look at it that way.  But even accepting that, what about YOUR relationship with the BSA?  You are not simply a volunteer selected by a CO, YOU are a member of the BSA.  You filled out an application, the application was accepted, and you have a membership card.  If you move across the country, you are still a member.  If in your new location a CO accepts you as a leader in their unit, or if you decide to get involved at the district or council level, you don't have to rejoin the BSA, you just transfer.  Your Youth Protection training and whatever other training you have (assuming the BSA's computer system hasn't erased it) are still good.

 

Part of being an individual member of the BSA are the shared values of the BSA, as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law.  That does connect you, in some sense, to the other members of the BSA.  Do you disagree with that?

Edited February 2, 2017 by NJCubScouter