ownership of scout units

[David CO]

To Dave CO

 

  I know the Council is not claiming the asset. But why do they recharter Scouts into units with stolen assets? If these scouts had no place to go in scouting a lot of this wouldn't happen. Again were was the Transfer of ownership papers? The Scout Organization needs to take a more active roll in regard to the behavior of it's members.

or lose the Scout Oath and Law. tell it like it is. Scout Members are no more honest,loyal, or trustworthy then the next guy.

 

Scouts always have another place to go in scouting, and I wouldn't have it any other way. You cannot stop scouts from going to another unit.  The Chartered Organization owns the unit, but it does not own the scouts.  The scouts are free to go where they please.

 

Likewise, you cannot stop other organizations from chartering a unit.  

 

I would not like to see the council and district scouters take a greater role in regulating the behavior of the unit scouters.  I think they do too much of that already.

 

The Chartered Organization owns the unit, and they should have the primary duty to regulate the unit and provide oversight of the unit scouters.

Edited January 23, 2017 by David CO

[Shift12345]

Dave CO

 So what I am hearing is the Scout Organization has no trouble banning Gay Leaders from scouting , but it can't ban thieves. Thieve should have some were to go.

  You know what happen in the Catholic Church. The bad behaving priest had some were to go. New parishes. With new victims. And the Catholic Organization ignored the problem. This made the Catholic Organization part of the problem.

New Charter Organizations rarely get a heads up. The only reason this one did is because I felt it would be unethical not to inform them. I have to disagree with you on the lack of involvement of an Organization with it's members when it comes to bad behavior. It goes to the core of what the Organization is truly about. Action is louder the empty Oaths and forgotten Laws.

[qwazse]

Shift,

 

It is a shame this has happened. But BSA is quite intentional about staying out of organizations' property squabbles. If a CO backs down from their right to source a scouting program, it's on them. If they want to clear old debts without regard to who was actually responsible, it's on them. If another CO wants to give these scouters a second chance, it's on them. If the old CO (either actively or passively) opts to absorb liability and transfer assets, it's on them.

 

The scouters are free to join any CO that will have them. The CO will only get a call from National HQ if they were charged with a crime. And even then, depending on the offense, the CO has the option to conclude that they'll still will accept the scouters to lead a unit under their sponsorship.

 

One thing that BSA pro's will not do, is block scouts' membership in a unit over shenanigans like these.

 

If your Scout Executive doesn't see the need to insist on revoking a charter, all parties are stuck with whatever hot potatoes they're holding.

 

Does it make BSA unappealing? I guess so. Last year, I had a risk-averse CO turn down a Pack because of concerns over being saddled with burdens like these.

[David CO]

Dave CO

 So what I am hearing is the Scout Organization has no trouble banning Gay Leaders from scouting , but it can't ban thieves. Thieve should have some were to go.

  You know what happen in the Catholic Church. The bad behaving priest had some were to go. New parishes. With new victims. And the Catholic Organization ignored the problem. This made the Catholic Organization part of the problem.

New Charter Organizations rarely get a heads up. The only reason this one did is because I felt it would be unethical not to inform them. I have to disagree with you on the lack of involvement of an Organization with it's members when it comes to bad behavior. It goes to the core of what the Organization is truly about. Action is louder the empty Oaths and forgotten Laws.

 

That may be what you're hearing, but it is not what I'm saying.

 

Of course BSA can ban a convicted felon from being a scout leader.  But these guys haven't been charged with or convicted of a crime.  Your CO didn't press charges.

 

Like it or not, you're stuck with that decision.

[Shift12345]

I agree I am stuck with that decision from both the CO and the Scout Organization. But that doesn't make it right. So I do not belong to either Organization any more both have proven to be not worthy of an ethical person's support.

[Stosh]

This sort of ethics floats through units on a regular basis.  Again last night I had a discussion with a parent on why we don't do ISA's in our unit.  Finances are always a good indicator of a unit's ethical stance.

[David CO]

I agree I am stuck with that decision from both the CO and the Scout Organization. But that doesn't make it right. So I do not belong to either Organization any more both have proven to be not worthy of an ethical person's support.

 

I will not criticize your decision to end your active participation in BSA.  Many of the scouters who have participated on this site have made a similar decision.  

[Shift12345]

I hope most of you realize that sooner or later it is going to be hard to get Charter Organizations to Charter Scout Units. After situations like these there will be too much bad blood for them to justify the Charters. Also they will realize the the reason for Chartering scout units doesn't exist any longer. There is no Scout Oath or Law as far as the Scout Organization is concerned. That is why the Charter Organization dropped the three Charters in this situation. This is why I have been after the Scout Organization for so long.

They are shooting themselves in the foot. Numbers are dropping. People do not like to be treated that way. Including Scout Members that drop out because of discuss with the Scout Organization after situations like these. We need honor, loyalty Honesty and integrity returned in scouting. 

[TAHAWK]

We are having no problems in this area (NE Ohio) getting COs.  We are continuing to have problems getting enough adult volunteers.  That seems to be the biggest brake on membership.

 

Speaking for the volunteers I know, Scouting still supports the Values of Scouting, and if you - you - are not doing that, it's on you.  

 

It is fair to distinguish between the Corporation and Scouting, but that has been true for a long time.

Edited January 24, 2017 by TAHAWK

[pchadbo]

Shift,

 

After reading this post, from what I have gleaned, I have a question: Are you expecting the BSA to fulfill the role that the Chartering Organization contracturally agreed to fulfill?

The Chartering Org signs the Charter every year agreeing among other things, the assumption of responsibility for the Unit and its leaders.  The Chartering Org is the only group with authority to remove a leader from a Scouting Unit.  If the CO has abdicated their obligation, it is not then the responsibility of BSA to pick up their slack If there is proof (at this point we have allegations) present it to the DE or SE. Otherwise, the CO has chosen to let the issue drop. That is their right to do so.

[TAHAWK]

 "The Chartering Org is the only group with authority to remove a leader from a Scouting Unit. "

 

If you are referring to a Scoutmaster, for example, not really.   That is why we have to "apply" for membership on Form 524-501.

[pchadbo]

 "The Chartering Org is the only group with authority to remove a leader from a Scouting Unit. "

 

If you are referring to a Scoutmaster, for example, not really.   That is why we have to "apply" for membership on Form 524-501.

I am referring to a Scoutmaster, ASM etc, The Chartering Org is the only one who can remove a leader from the UNIT, BSA can remove the from SCOUTING all together.

[TAHAWK]

I am referring to a Scoutmaster, ASM etc, The Chartering Org is the only one who can remove a leader from the UNIT, BSA can remove the from SCOUTING all together.

All squares are rectangles.

[fred johnson]

... So I do not belong to either Organization any more both have proven to be not worthy of an ethical person's support.

 

I applaud your drive.  Sometimes fighting a good fight for what is right is important.  But it easily moves from being right to being wrong.  Essentially, tilting at wind mills and rehashing damaging stories.  Plus, I suspect if we talk with the involved leaders we may hear a different story.  Often when hard feelings exist about stuck situations, then each side has a strongly different story.  

 

With the tens of thousands of scouting units out there, these things happen.  Just as it could happen in a little league, girl scouts, sports teams or many other organization.  

 

But I view it different.  Imperfect people created a bad situation.  Now the real challenge is moving past it and maybe fixing the bad situation.  Get the charter org to support scouting again.  Help these families back into scouting.  Help create positives for you, your family and everyone involved.

 

I wish you the best and hope you can move on.  

[pchadbo]

All squares are rectangles.

Yes, but not all rectangles are squares, I was specific in my language.  As Ms Cantara, my Freshman English teacher use to tell me: words mean things.