ownership of scout units

[David CO]

To Dave CO

 

  I know the Council is not claiming the asset. But why do they recharter Scouts into units with stolen assets? If these scouts had no place to go in scouting a lot of this wouldn't happen. Again were was the Transfer of ownership papers? The Scout Organization needs to take a more active roll in regard to the behavior of it's members.

or lose the Scout Oath and Law. tell it like it is. Scout Members are no more honest,loyal, or trustworthy then the next guy.

 

A lot has been said about the "transfer of ownership" of the unit.  Yes, there are forms that must be signed in order for a unit to be transferred from one Chartered Organization to another.  

 

This doesn't appear to be what happened in this case.  It sounds like a new unit was formed with a new charter and a new unit number.

 

You say that the main question in your post is, Who owns the unit?  The Chartered Organization owns the unit.  The CO owns both the assets and the liabilities.

 

The CO also owns the responsibility to secure their assets.  This may include providing a secure storage space, insuring the assets from accidental loss, and bonding the people who have physical control over the assets.

 

My CO does all of these things.  I think the lesson to be learned here is that a CO needs to put a little more thought and effort into it before problems like this arise.  After all, our motto is BE Prepared.

[RememberSchiff]

David CO on 22 January 2017 - 02:44 PM

My CO insists that all officers be bonded.  In the very unlikely event that someone absconds with the unit's equipment or funds, the insurance policy would cover the loss.  The insurance company would then go after the culprit.

 

The CO also owns the responsibility to secure their assets.  This may include providing a secure storage space, insuring the assets from accidental loss, and bonding the people who have physical control over the assets.

 

My CO does all of these things.  I think the lesson to be learned here is that a CO needs to put a little more thought and effort into it before problems like this arise.  After all, our motto is BE Prepared.

 

This is the first that I have heard of this. Could you elaborate on bonding in your units? Which unit leaders? Who does the bonding? Thanks. 

[Stosh]

Anyone that is in a position of trust can be bonded.  It's like an insurance policy for those you think will screw up or do something stupid. 

 

I think my wife has one of those policies on me.

[David CO]

RememberSchiff,

 

A surety bond is a type of insurance policy.  Many insurance companies offer surety bonds as one of their insurance products.  I am not an expert on insurance matters, but I do regularly purchase surety bonds as a part of my job duties, so I can explain it from my point of view.  

 

It is very easy to buy a surety bond.  My insurance agent does all the paper work, and it is not very expensive.  The cost will vary depending on who is being bonded and how much money/equipment is being handled.

 

I am bonded because I have the keys to everything at my CO.  Everyone with keys to the building gets bonded. Other people are bonded because they handle cash, accounts, or supplies.

 

Having people bonded has two major advantages.  In the very unlikely event of someone betraying the trust of the Chartered Organization, the CO is insured against loss.

 

The other advantage of bonding is that it tends to make people take their responsibilities more seriously.  Someone who is bonded is unlikely to be confused over who owns the property.

Edited January 26, 2017 by David CO

[NJCubScouter]

David, I think you are talking about a fidelity bond (aka fidelity insurance policy), not a surety bond. But I agree with the general idea. The policy would obligate the insurance company to reimburse the CO or unit if, for example, a troop treasurer were to embezzle fund-rating proceeds. (Subject to the policy limits and deductibles.) The insurer would then most likely file a lawsuit against the now-former treasurer, assuming he/she isn't in Aruba or somewhere living off the popcorn money.

 

I have never heard of a CO having such a policy on unit volunteers, but it might be worth looking into.

[David CO]

David, I think you are talking about a fidelity bond (aka fidelity insurance policy), not a surety bond. But I agree with the general idea. The policy would obligate the insurance company to reimburse the CO or unit if, for example, a troop treasurer were to embezzle fund-rating proceeds. (Subject to the policy limits and deductibles.) The insurer would then most likely file a lawsuit against the now-former treasurer, assuming he/she isn't in Aruba or somewhere living off the popcorn money.

 

I have never heard of a CO having such a policy on unit volunteers, but it might be worth looking into.

 

Thanks for the correction.  As I said, I am not an expert on insurance matters. Maybe someone who works in the insurance business will start another thread about bonding. 

 

I'm glad that my CO has our key people bonded.  I am not at all offended that my CO has me bonded.  I think it is a good idea.  Very professional. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

 I started this discussion so people would know how things are, what you take away from the information given is up to you. I had work very hard to make scouting what the BSA states. Personally I can't belong to an organization that isn't what it states. As long as the BSA allows membership to this type of people I will not belong. For me knowing how things are done or not done is a conflict of interest. I can't teach young people about the Scout Oath or Law, when I know that is not what all scouts are. That the BSA doesn't expect all it's members to live them. At that point it is a waste of time. 

So what was wrongly done or wrongly omitted in your situation was a matter of BSA policy or decisions made by BSA?  Because otherwise you seem to be assigning collective guilt to everyone else whom you label "BSA."  Your local council is a franchisee, not BSA.  

[David CO]

So what was wrongly done or wrongly omitted in your situation was a matter of BSA policy or decisions made by BSA?  Because otherwise you seem to be assigning collective guilt to everyone else whom you label "BSA."  Your local council is a franchisee, not BSA.  

 

I know that a council is a actually a franchisee, but BSA exercises so much active control over the councils that I too tend to label them as BSA.  Also, with modern councils covering such a wide territory, it is hard to think of them as local.

 

I am interested in Shift's remark that the council told the Chartered Organization that it, the CO, was responsible for the debt to the vendor.  I am wondering if this was true, or if the council (BSA) was just acting to protect itself.  

 

I can see his point.  The council chose to insert itself into the matter of the vendor's bill, but took a hands off approach in the matter of the fundraising proceeds.  There does seem to be some inconsistency there, perhaps guided by the council's self-interest.

 

Of course, the question of financial liability to the vendor is now a moot point since the CO chose to pay the bill.  But that doesn't alter the reasonableness of Shift's animosity toward BSA or his decision to end his participation in the organization.

 

As I said before, I will not criticize his decision.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by David CO

[RememberSchiff]

David CO, NJCubScouter, Thanks.

 

I did some further googling on fidelity bonding. My findings:

- a dishonesty bond ( a type of fidelity bond) with blanket (all employees/volunteers) coverage seems to most relevant.

 

- "provides protection from monetary or property theft or other employee misconduct that can result in a financial loss."

 

- The non-profit organization buys at 0.5 to 1% of coverage? So if troop treasury is $5K then cost is about $50. Hmmm about the cost of BSA volunteer registration. If a "blanket" coverage, the number of employees covered also adds to cost.

 

- "Just like any insurance policy, a fidelity bond comes with exclusions and limitations (deductible?). Once the claims process begins, the insurance company will launch an investigation and attempt to get all of the facts in order to process the claim."

 

I bolded the above sentence as it sounds more appealing than the unit, police, or Council investigating.

 

So does the CO include its unit(s) in a fidelity bond for its whole organization or seek a separate bond for each unit (presumably paid by unit)?

 

https://www.trustedchoice.com/business-insurance/coverage-types/surety-bonds/fidelity/

[David CO]

My CO is the athletic department of a school.  We handle a lot of cash from admissions and concessions, and about a quarter million $ worth of equipment and supplies.  So, we insure everything.

 

We limit the number of people who handle/control cash, accounts, and supplies.  These people are specifically bonded, and they must sign a form.  I am specifically bonded.  We also have a blanket policy to cover other volunteers.

 

We don't have a separate insurance policy for the scout unit.  The scouts are included in the school's blanket policy.  The SM, CC, and treasurer sign an insurance company form, since they handle/control troop funds and equipment.

 

It saddens me when I hear of situations like the one Shift has described, knowing that it could have been prevented with an insurance policy.

 

Robert Frost said that good fences make good neighbors.  Perhaps good insurance policies make good scouters.

Edited January 26, 2017 by David CO

[Stosh]

  One needs to review their Robert Frost.  That line is the entrenched stance of a man who has no real excuse for having a fence in the first place, after all my apples are no threat to his pine cones.  But...... "good fences make good neighbors."  In other words, the insurance isn't really going to make a bit of difference for those whose intent is to do wrong anymore than hunters climbing and knocking down fences in pursuit of their prey.

[NJCubScouter]

In other words, the insurance isn't really going to make a bit of difference for those whose intent is to do wrong anymore than hunters climbing and knocking down fences in pursuit of their prey. 

 

Actually, it may make a large difference.  The unit or the CO may not want to go through the aggravation and legal expense of suing the person who stole the money.  But the insurance company that sold the fidelity bond, which has attorneys on staff and files this kind of lawsuit all the time, very well may.  (Or not, if a very small amount was stolen.)  The point is that the thief probably has a greater chance of having to pay the money back if there is insurance.

 

And even if the thief is never compelled to pay the money back, even if the insurance company just pays the claim and eats the loss, the insurance will make a difference to the kids and adults who will, after all, receive the fruits of their labors despite the fact that someone stole the money.

[David CO]

More importantly, we don't want to lose good scouts, scouters, and CO's due to this sort of thing.

 

There are problems and controversies in scouting that seem nearly impossible to resolve.  This one has an easy fix.  We shouldn't be losing scouters over it.

 

I wish Shift's CO had just bought an insurance policy, rechartered the units, and moved on.  Lesson learned.

Edited January 26, 2017 by David CO

[Stosh]

Insurance policies, gun-free zone policies, BSA policies, etc. have all kept things running smoothly without problems.... That's what Robert Frost was getting at.  The one neighbor said good fences make good neighbors, but without fail every year they are back there mending the fence so that the one neighbor's apples will be kept from the other neighbor's pine cones. 

 

Robert Frost said that good fences make good neighbors.  Perhaps good insurance policies make good scouters.

 

Even with the Golden Rule in place, gun laws coming out our ears, policies created, 10 Commandments preached, people still are getting shot everyday.  The "fences" are irrelevant.

 

If the CO isn't going to file a police report, then they can't file an insurance claim either.  And even then one does not need to file a claim even if they have insurance.  Every situation is different.

 

I have maximum liability coverage and an additional $1M umbrella policy on my homeowner's insurance.  And yet I carry no life insurance, nor collision/comprehensive insurance on my cars.  I'm not going to pay an insurance company for my stupidity, and if I'm in an accident and it's not my fault, the other guy's insurance is going to pay.  The last time one of my cars was damaged, I put a claim on the other driver's insurance.  His insurance paid up in full, no questions asked.  Remember, one gets the name, contact information AND INSURANCE contact when in an accident.  I don't have insurance on my vehicles except liability, so I just file on the other guy's insurance.    It's surprising how slick that works.

[Shift12345]

Can an insurance company get back Loyalty, Honesty, or the trust? I think NOT. These are the reasons I scouted. They are also the reason I don't no more.

Only the BSA can get back it's integrity. No CO can do this for them. This went beyond the local scout council. I told you I have worked very hard to give the BSA every opportunity the restore it's integrity.

 A "National Alliance Team" was sent to look into this situation. Of course the CO was not invited to the meeting. The BSA National Alliance Team determined, "there is no solution that would make both sides "happy". Well I can agree with that statement. From my point of view the BSA has lost it's integrity. So there is no point to insurance to, "get back things" The point is the CO shouldn't have to have insurance. Honesty, Trustworthy, Loyalty. Scout Oath and Law.