ownership of scout units

[David CO]

BSA can remove a scouter for cause.  A Chartered Organization can remove a scouter (from the unit) at will.

Edited January 24, 2017 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

So, with due precision, BSA, and not just a unit, can remove a Scouter from participation in a unit as a necessary consequence of barring participation in any unit.  

 

From Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America

 

"Registration and participation in Scouting is a privilege that may be denied, limited, or terminated when determined to be in the best interest of Scouting."

 

"To be eligible for registration, a Scouter must agree to: subscribe to the Scout Oath; fulfill the obligations of his or her position; and perform his or her duties in accordance with the Rules and Regulations, policies, and guidelines of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

"Unit leaders must be selected and approved by the chartered organization and are subject to the approval of the local council and the Boy Scouts of America."

 

"As a private, membership organization, the Boy Scouts of America has the right to set standards of membership and leadership. That right includes the ability to deny, expire, revoke, or otherwise limit or bar registration or affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America or any local council or any other affiliated organization. The general procedure for maintaining those standards is expressed in a publication titled Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership and Leadership; however, nothing contained therein limits the ability of the Boy Scouts of America to take such action as it may deem appropriate in its sole discretion."

[pchadbo]

So, with due precision, BSA, and not just a unit, can remove a Scouter from participation in a unit as a necessary consequence of barring participation in any unit.  

 

From Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America

 

"Registration and participation in Scouting is a privilege that may be denied, limited, or terminated when determined to be in the best interest of Scouting."

 

"To be eligible for registration, a Scouter must agree to: subscribe to the Scout Oath; fulfill the obligations of his or her position; and perform his or her duties in accordance with the Rules and Regulations, policies, and guidelines of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

"Unit leaders must be selected and approved by the chartered organization and are subject to the approval of the local council and the Boy Scouts of America."

 

"As a private, membership organization, the Boy Scouts of America has the right to set standards of membership and leadership. That right includes the ability to deny, expire, revoke, or otherwise limit or bar registration or affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America or any local council or any other affiliated organization. The general procedure for maintaining those standards is expressed in a publication titled Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership and Leadership; however, nothing contained therein limits the ability of the Boy Scouts of America to take such action as it may deem appropriate in its sole discretion."

Yes, you are 100% accurate regarding the fact that BSA can remove a leader for all of SCouting, thus removing them from ALL units that they may be associated. For an individual to be removed from a SPECIFIC Unit that power lies within the Chartering Oganization.  

See, we are both right!

Can we stop splitting hairs now?

 

;-)

[TAHAWK]

My only point is that the power is not solely with the CO.  

 

Someone introduced the concept of precision in language.  That was not me.   

What's the point of a sharp knife if you can't split a hair once and a while.  

[Shift12345]

 So in a situation like this when the unit leaders jump to another Charter Organization with the former unit's assets. The old Charter Organization has no authority over these Scout Leaders. But because The BSA can revoke their Scout membership. No matter what unit they are in, that is what should happen.  I have all the Records bank,equipment list, everything was done with the unit commissioner. Just because the Charter Organization was fed-up with with the situation doesn't mean the BSA should ignore the situation.

The Charter Organization had meetings with the unit commissioner and the council executive and the unit leaders before they left. So the Scout Leaders knew right from wrong. Yes there are two sides to the story. One side the Charter Organization did everything by the book before the theft. The other side had to be stopped from taking out a loan for a Unit Trailer, and had to be told to plan two unit outings over again using the safe guild to scouting and was told by the council if they wanted to leave the Charter organization the unit assets stay with this unit. These are some of the reasons they wanted to leave the Charter Organization. the Charter Organization wouldn't let the Scout Leaders ignore Scout policies. After that meeting the Charter Organization was told by the unit leaders that they had to think about staying or going. Remember Honesty, Loyalty, Trustworthy. Wouldn't you expect that from Scout Leaders representing the BSA as Unit Leaders? Shouldn't the BSA?  

[Shift12345]

 Let me put it this way. Yes the Charter Organization can remove Scout leaders. But that is hard to do when they jump ship.  in a 4 year span The Scout Leaders were with 3 different Charter Organizations. The first two no longer have scout troops. See a pattern? 

[Shift12345]

  Need more? Part of this same group didn't bring the rechartering documented to the the Charter Organization of the Cub Scout Unit they were leaving at cross over.

This Organization had been the Pack's Charter for decades. The unit leader moved the pack and assets to the Charter Organization that Chartered the Boy Scout Troop he was moving to. Now they could keep using the equipment. When I found out about it I call the CEO at the CO he told me he call the committee chair of the pack and was told the unit decided to Charter else where. Honesty. Loyalty, Trustworthy while representing the BSA. REALLY?

[F-P]

Sounds like a problem with a specific group of people, not the whole organization.  And as others have said, it can happen to any organization where there are large numbers of people participating.

[qwazse]

I'm sorry, but by not having a trained trusted and dedicated COR, the old charter gave up its birthright for whatever bowl of soup they were being fed.

 

I am in a similar position of dealing with my CO who fielded nominal CORs for consecutive years. One self-interested scouter could have had them move their troop unit number to a CO just down the road where our boys merged with another troop. If it weren't for the boys voting down the idea, it could have been done without argument. And a CO that doesn't have the time in their agenda to spare one of its three services for scout Sunday recognition would have gotten a number with a reputation it had zero effort in building. Unless someone in the original CO fields a rep willing to stand up for it, they will lose their scouting program.

[David CO]

Shift,

 

Were the scout leaders who left allowed to take the unit number, or were they given a new unit number?  Under normal circumstances, the unit number stays with the original Chartered Organization unless it voluntarily agrees to turn it over to a new CO.  

[Shift12345]

  They were not allowed the unit numbers. The unit rechartered but lost the charter when the former Scout Leaders threaten to sue the Charter Organization if it filed a police report for stolen property. I talked them into not dropping the three units until the Charters were up. This gave the BSA 6 months to do something about this situation.

NO help there. Look, it is the BSA that states it's members follow the Scout Oath and Law. That is what people, scout members, and charter organizations expect.

   Law implies enforcement. Simply put most people expect the organization you belong to to enforce it's Oaths and Laws. It doesn't work to have the Charter Organization do it, many Scout members do not belong to the Charter Organization so they simply move to another. The common denominator is the BSA.

[Shift12345]

 I started this discussion so people would know how things are, what you take away from the information given is up to you. I had work very hard to make scouting what the BSA states. Personally I can't belong to an organization that isn't what it states. As long as the BSA allows membership to this type of people I will not belong. For me knowing how things are done or not done is a conflict of interest. I can't teach young people about the Scout Oath or Law, when I know that is not what all scouts are. That the BSA doesn't expect all it's members to live them. At that point it is a waste of time. 

[Stosh]

This sort of "stuff" happens on a routine basis in far more units than those getting the publicity.  For years the adults complained about the school CO for one of our feeder Packs.   4 organizations met on meeting night one after another and the Cubs were last in line.  The place was a mess when they arrived and everyone had to stay extra long to get the place leaned up or the school janitors had a fit all the way up to the school superintendent. 

 

I had just started my troop with my current CO and so we worked with the Pack to get them switched over to our CO.  Everyone was happy for 2 seconds.  With the new CM, who doesn't like the meeting place...the church BASEMENT!... they are now working to go back to the school CO once again.  The church "basement" was not a storage dump.  It was the church's fellowship hall, with stage, carpeting, plenty of tables, soda machine, nice bathrooms and a full church kitchen and plenty of storage for Cub equipment.  I wonder how much drama has to occur to get them back to the original CO?

 

I was the UC for the Pack, but I got switched out when I told the District Commish I didn't need that kind of hassle in my life and someone else can mess with it.

 

There seems to be a lot more people living at conflict levels 4 and 5 nowadays.

[David CO]

  They were not allowed the unit numbers. The unit rechartered but lost the charter when the former Scout Leaders threaten to sue the Charter Organization if it filed a police report for stolen property. I talked them into not dropping the three units until the Charters were up. This gave the BSA 6 months to do something about this situation.

NO help there. Look, it is the BSA that states it's members follow the Scout Oath and Law. That is what people, scout members, and charter organizations expect.

   Law implies enforcement. Simply put most people expect the organization you belong to to enforce it's Oaths and Laws. It doesn't work to have the Charter Organization do it, many Scout members do not belong to the Charter Organization so they simply move to another. The common denominator is the BSA.

 

OK.  I was getting a little confused.  Let's see if I've got this right, and feel free to correct me if I'm still misunderstanding something.

 

A group of scouters and scouts from your CO's 3 units were unhappy (about some reasonable restrictions and requirements placed on them by your CO), so they went to another CO and formed a new unit (with a new unit number).

 

They took some of your CO's assets with them, including the money from a recent fundraiser and the scout equipment.  This left your CO holding the bag for money still owed to the vendor.

 

Your CO asked for the property back, and was refused. Because of a threat of lawsuits, your CO decided to not press charges or take any legal action.

 

At your request, the CO gave you 6 months to pull the scouting program back together, which you were unable to do, and the CO chose to not recharter the 3 units.

 

You feel that the council should have taken direct action to get the funds and equipment back to the rightful owner.  If this didn't work, you feel that the council/district/BSA should have dropped the membership of the scouters responsible for taking the equipment and funds.

 

You are also upset with the CO.  You feel that they had an ethical obligation to act against their former scouters, both for the good of your 3 units and to prevent the scouters from doing this again in the future to some other unsuspecting unit.

 

Consequently, you have decided to not participate anymore in either BSA or the Chartered Organization.

 

Have I got this right so far?

 

I still have a couple of questions.  Was the fundraiser a unit or council organized fundraiser (popcorn?), and were the funds taken part of any scout accounts, which might be seen (by some people) as the property of the individual scouts?

Edited January 25, 2017 by David CO

[Stosh]

What people fail to realize in all this mess is that the unit fund raises under a tax exempt number for that CO and the money given is designated as for the program under that CO. 

 

There is no way a group of people can take those funds and assets from that CO without constituting theft.  That's the ethical basis for the "new" scout unit.  Not much of a legacy to start out with.

 

Let's see how that works out.  A church is having problems with their pastor.  As time goes by, the minority of members who have taken the pastor's side, all decide to start a new church with their pastor.  The pastor and followers take with them the pews, all the tables in the fellowship hall and all the desks in the Sunday School rooms.  Basically everything that isn't nailed down.

 

Does anyone see a problem here?  If not good luck with the new church and the message it plans on promoting.