ownership of scout units

[Shift12345]

I have seen this topic before and would like to post about it.

if you have ever been in a situation were this question is raised, I truly have pity for the unit.

This question only comes up when adult leaders do not embrace the Scout Oath and Law.

Clearly all parties involved will clam ownership of assets. Getting a clear answer is like pulling teeth. 

The question to ask is who owns the unit when there are no asset to pay off a large liability?

Like if a unit has a fund raiser and the the money raised and all the funds in the unit"s account are missing.

 And the product provider has not been payed?

Clearly if you own the Liabilities of a scout unit, you own the Assets. Ownership goes Both ways.

If you ask this question the BSA has a very clear answer. The Charter Organization Owns the Scout Units.

There for any Unit and It"s assets moved with out the properly signed release papers is a breech of the Charter Agreement.

Both by the Unit Leaders and the Scout Council that rechartered without that paper work.

letting the Charter laps on purpose with out bring the recharter papers to your charter organization is still wrong.

You still do not have the sign off paper work so unit leaders should not be able to move units.

 

[TAHAWK]

What do you mean by "units"?  The people?

[Deaf Scouter]

So the purpose of your posting is what?? 

[MattR]

Tahawk and Deaf scouter, I think you both just failed the Turing test.

 

Just a hunch, but the OP looks to me like a random bunch of lines pulled out of previous threads related to this subject.

[Oldscout448]

Shift, I'm sorry but I'm just not getting a clear picture of the situation here.

 

Does the troop owe money to a vendor?   That some leaders made off with?    The charter was allowed to expire?   Is the CO now left holding the bag?

 

Or is this just a troll?

Edited January 22, 2017 by Oldscout448

[David CO]

The Chartered Organization owns the unit.  

 

On the question of liabilities, the person who signs a contract is usually liable for the debt.  If a volunteer leader signs a contract without the knowledge and approval of the Chartered Organization, the volunteer leader may be personally liable for the debt.

 

A scout unit is not a legal entity.  A scout unit cannot incur a debt.

 

Most vendors will insist on having contracts signed by an authorized officer the CO.  If an authorized officer of the CO signs a contract, the CO is usually liable for the debt.

 

My CO insists that all officers be bonded.  In the very unlikely event that someone absconds with the unit's equipment or funds, the insurance policy would cover the loss.  The insurance company would then go after the culprit.

 

Be Prepared.

Edited January 22, 2017 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

Tahawk and Deaf scouter, I think you both just failed the Turing test.

 

Just a hunch, but the OP looks to me like a random bunch of lines pulled out of previous threads related to this subject.

I thought the "Turing Test" IS a series of questions.  No?  (Just checking.  )

[Shift12345]

The reason for the post was to give a clear answer to ownership of any scout unit.

I have a close friend, he and his son were members of a cub scout unit.  After a fund raiser a scout leader in the unit made off with the cash.

as you know many scout believe the Scouts or Scout Organization owns Scout Units. Many Scout leaders do not ask or get the Charter Organizations permission

when it comes to scout activities including fund raisers. Also many Charter Organization believe the Scout Leaders of the units they charter will operate using Scout Policies. Then there is the real world.

Many Charter Organizations believe the Scout Organization will enforce the Scout Law and Oath, and Scout Policies were Scout Members are involved. Not so.

I am not saying It is all the Scout Organization's fault. The Charter Organization should have a Charter Organization Rep. to keep tabs on what is going on in it's units.

In the end the Scout Council informed the Charter Organization that it owns the Scout Unit and there for the liability. The Charter Organization payed the money owed

to the fund raiser vendor. The unit still exist. But as I have said in my first post, when it comes to assets it is hard to get a strait answer from the BSA.

However I think because the answer is clear about ownership when it comes to liability. Ownership goes both ways if the Charter Organization owns the liabilities of the scout unit it Charters,then the Charter Organization also owns the Scout Unit and the unit assets.

Why do you think the Scout Organization charters the Scout Units to Charter Organizations?

One reason is to relieve the Scout Organization from any financial liabilities a scout unit may find itself in.

 That being said when Scout Leaders move Scout Units or Unit assets to a different Charter Organization without the Charter Organization's permission and the

Scout Council recharters without the proper transfer of ownership paper work. They, the Scout Leaders and the Scout Council are claiming ownership of the Scout Unit and the unit assets.This would also include scout unit liabilities. Every time a Scout Unit is move this way it paves the way, it sets a president, it under mines the Charter Agreement.   Soon Charter Organizations will use these transfer of Scout Units as a way to no longer pay the liabilities of Scout Units The Scout Council represents the Scout Organization, rechartering Scout Units and assets without proper ownership transfer paperwork gives question to ownership and a way out for the Charter Organizations not to pay Scout unit liabilities if you have a good lawyer.

  Now you also asked why I have posted all this.

Because I have been trying to get the BSA to do something about these inappropriate Scout Unit and unit assets transfers for 3 years. I have tried to save the BSA from themselves. I am now writing about two different situations, but ownership of Scout Units is at the core of all these situations. Both a scout unit's assets and liabilities.  Two cases were scout units and unit assets were taken from the Charter Organization without the Charter Organization's permission. The same Scout Leaders were involved and the leaders knew the Charter Organization owned the Scout units and the unit assets and the BSA will do nothing about it. Some of you will most likely tell me it is the Charter Organization's responsibility to get the unit assets back for the unit it Charters.

 The Charter Organization tried to do just that. The Scout Leaders involved hired a lawyer and threaten to sue the Charter Organization if it didn't stop the pursuit of the taken assets. With no help from the BSA, and the BSA allowing these Scout Leaders to remain in the Scouting Organization, why should the Charter try to get back the scout unit's assets? This Charter Organization Chartered three Scout units Cub Scout Pack, Boy Scout Troop, and a Venturing Crew. All Units lost this Charter Organization

because of that threat. Still Nothing was done. I just don't understand why the BSA is ignoring a problem of this magnitude.

[Stosh]

The solution to this whole thing is one of two things.

 

If the situation means there's something to gain, then BSA owns the unit.  If the situation means there's something to lose, then the Chartering Organization owns the unit.  I can't see why one can't figure that out.

 

First of all the CO needs to have the theft reported and followed up by appropriate legal means, i.e. file a police report.  That should handle the criminal side of the issue.

 

Then take these people to civil court to reclaim damages and recoup the money lost by the theft.

 

On the second issue, with the leaders taking the assets.  That's theft and should be reported to the authorities as such.  Then again, head for civil court to reclaim the value of the assets taken.

 

We had a situation in one of the units I served when a boy went to Philmont and left the troop with the cost/debt of his trip.  The mother didn't seem to be concerned, after all her son got a free trip out of the deal.

 

The troop took her to small claims court.  She said she wasn't worried, the court couldn't enforce the repayment anyway even if there is a judgement against her.  She didn't even bother to show up for the court appearance.  When she didn't show the unit asked the judge for an arrest warrant to be issued for her contempt of court by not showing up.  He did and she was taken into custody. 

 

Sometimes it takes a little more shaking things up to convince some people that one is taking these kinds of things seriously.

 

A police report goes a long way when appearing in small claims court or civil court.  It does wonders for a person's criminal record and credit score.  Best to get a lawyer and figure one is going to have to play hard ball.  That's usually not the way nice people want to have things turn out, but if one is going to be taken seriously, maybe they're going to have to become a bit uncomfortable in the process.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Stosh

[TAHAWK]

So the purpose of your posting is what?? 

 

*************************************************

 

 

 

The reason for the post was to give a clear answer to ownership of any scout unit.

 

Thank you.

[David CO]

I very much doubt that a scout council is claiming ownership of a unit.  They don't do that. 

 

You are exactly right.  I am going to tell you that it is up to the Chartered Organization to get back the assets.  Nobody else can do it.  If the Chartered Organization doesn't want to do it, then it can't be done.

 

I do understand why many Chartered Organizations will not want to press charges or file lawsuits.  It is not a pleasant business. 

 

My CO would prefer to not get involved in that sort of thing.  It would rather just collect the insurance money and let the insurance company deal with all the unpleasantness.  

 

Many Chartered Organizations are insured against theft.  I wonder why your CO didn't file an insurance claim.

Edited January 23, 2017 by David CO

[Shift12345]

 Thank you Stosh,

 

  What you posted is correct good nice people do not want to take it that far. That is why the Charter Organization on the third attempt to resolve the issue after two nice letters wrote to the Scout Leaders and told them the Charter Organization was debating filing a police report.  This was an attempt to end this with out things getting messy. That is when they hired a lawyer and threaten to sue for slander. ( They are Lucky I didn't have the authority to file that report.)

  The Scout Council knew of the situation but would do nothing. From the Charter Organization's point of view these scout leaders should be out of scouting. It was Members of the Scout Organization who took the assets. That is why the Charter Organization dropped the three scout units. Why would they invest in lawyers, time, and money to get the assets back just so it could happen again? And for an Organization that will do nothing about it's members that do not follow any of the scouts ideals.   Remember NO backing from the Scout Organization. These Scout Leaders broke the Scout Oath, Law and Charter Agreement. The remaining unit members can't do anything with out a Charter Organization. So three Scout units lost their Charter because of These Scout Leaders. And National knows about this situation and ignored it. Like I said three years. Many have said I'm wasting my time. I tell them "It would be unethical not to try to keep this from happening to others."

 There is a larger picture here. Again every time the BSA ignores the transfer of Scout Units and unit assets to a different Charter Organization by Scout Leaders and Scout Councils it under mines the Charter Agreement. Frankly this whole thing under mines the BSA. Like I said Scout Leaders. (One of them an Eagle Scout)

 I'm sorry but I have to agree with the Charter Organization. The Scout Organization should do more to insure it's members live up to the ideals the Organization boast.

 I think in this case the Scout Organization should suspend membership of these Scout Leaders. After a meeting with all involved, and a resolution is determined with a  restitution agreement for the Scout Leaders for reinstatement into scouting. Only after Scout Organization and Charter Organization agree the restitution is complete would the Scout Leaders be reinstated as Scout Members. If they choose not to make restitution their suspension would become expulsion. Including ALL ranks, honors, and privilege. Their name would be added to the scout data base as such. If this could happen BAD BEHAVIOR would be a thing of the past. As thing are now People like these, know they will get away with it.       .

[qwazse]

The scouters involved created a hot mess.

The CO should have stuck to its guns over the assets.

The new CO should have been informed that the scouters were brokering in bad faith.

 

Should BSA be involved? Well, unless criminal charges were filed, how would they know to suspend these scouters' memberships?

[Shift12345]

To Dave CO

 

  I know the Council is not claiming the asset. But why do they recharter Scouts into units with stolen assets? If these scouts had no place to go in scouting a lot of this wouldn't happen. Again were was the Transfer of ownership papers? The Scout Organization needs to take a more active roll in regard to the behavior of it's members.

or lose the Scout Oath and Law. tell it like it is. Scout Members are no more honest,loyal, or trustworthy then the next guy.

[Shift12345]

qwazse

 

 I did let the new CO know about what these Scouter were all about. I bought and gave them the scout hand book and the CO Reps Training Manual.

I told them to read it so they would know about scouting and it's policies. so they wouldn't get fooled. that is why they got the lawyer.