BOR, Advancement Report at Committee Meeting

[T2Eagle]

I will soon be moving from SM to CC, and so I'm starting to think about my new role.  Part of my understanding of the function of the committee is to evaluate the quality of the troop program through the BOR process.  How, if at all, do your units do this?  Do you have any formal reporting, is it a standard topic of committee meetings?

 

We currently don't do anything formally, for the most part BORs meet and approve, or really rarely disapprove, an advancement, but beyond the fact of the advancement we don't formally communicate any other impressions or thoughts from the BOR.

 

I'm not convinced I want to do anything formal, but I want to look at other ideas.

Edited January 20, 2017 by T2Eagle

[NJCubScouter]

In our BOR's, we specifically ask the Scout about things that are going right and wrong in the troop, whether there is anything they would like to see improved, etc. In fact, I am usually the one who asks those questions. Most of the time "everything's fine" but sometimes there is a negative comment, and about 70 percent of the negative comments are some variation of "things should be more organized."  If there is a second place it would of the type "We should do more (fill in the blank) on camping trips."

I generally go directly to the SM, and sometimes to the SM and SPL together, and pass along the comments that are being made.  Not after every negative comment, but at a time interval that seems reasonable under the circumstances.  (For example, the SM and SPL already know things could be more organized, and they're working on it, but it doesn't hurt to remind them every now and then that the Scouts know it too.)  I do not identify the Scout, although the SM and SPL know who has had BOR's recently.  If it were something really sensitive I would try harder to protect the Scout's anonymity, but it never really has been.  If it required some emergency action, I would encourage the Scout to come with me to talk to the SM and get things moving right there, but that has never happened either.

 

In the case of "We should do more (fill in the blank) on camping trips" or the like, my response at the BOR will include a suggestion that the Scout mention this idea to their Patrol Leader (or to the PLC if they are a member of the PLC), but I will also tell the Scout that I will mention it to the Scoutmaster. That way, they will see that there is some point in answering the question in the first place.

Having referred the comments to the SM/SPL, there is seldom a need for a "formal" report at committee meetings on what the kids are saying at BOR's. I think there have been two occasions when the "we need to be more organized" comments became numerous enough that I did mention it at a committee meeting. I am not sure whether you would consider that to be a "formal" or "informal" report.  Our committee meetings are generally "informal" anyway, so what I would consider a "formal report" would be something in writing. The only written reports we get are the Treasurer's reports.

I suppose an argument could be made that as an individual committee member, I should not refer the information directly to the SM/SPL but rather to the CC, who would then speak to the SM, who would then speak to the SPL and PLC. I think my way is more effective and efficient for my troop, even if it is slightly less compliant with a strict reading of the organizational chart.

[T2Eagle]

Thanks NJ, what you describe is pretty identical with what we do now.  I am not a big fan of either strict organizational charts or any sort of written report.  I'm just looking for ideas for how to wear my new hat.

[fred johnson]

I think your first judgement is best.  Keep it simple.  Maybe ask as part of the troop committee meetings if there was anything interesting learned from the BOR.  But I'd really avoid adding more paperwork and formalizing things.  It leads to more forms and checklists and ....

[blw2]

pretty much like njcubscouter described, for us.

I too really try to focus on those questions about how is it going, what the scout thinks can be improved etc..., although i have noticed the MC's doing more of that too.  Honestly haven't gotten many meaningful answers yet that really needed to be passed along.

 

We have no formal procedure, and things are pretty casual and discussed when/as needed

 

I would like a more formal focus on this role of the committee.  what I mean isn't make a big deal of it, no paperwork and no making more out of it than it needs....but just a bullet point to be mentioned at every committee meeting..."does anyone have anything re. program improvement feedback?", something like that 2 minutes or less kind of thing.... Lately have been thinking about formally suggesting some things regarding program improvement, mainly around encouraging more patrol spirit and using the patrol method more.... but these aren't really from BOR's just my own observations.

[NJCubScouter]

I would like a more formal focus on this role of the committee.  what I mean isn't make a big deal of it, no paperwork and no making more out of it than it needs....but just a bullet point to be mentioned at every committee meeting..."does anyone have anything re. program improvement feedback?", something like that 2 minutes or less kind of thing.... Lately have been thinking about formally suggesting some things regarding program improvement, mainly around encouraging more patrol spirit and using the patrol method more.... but these aren't really from BOR's just my own observations.

 

I think your bullet point is a good idea.  In our committee the last item of the meeting is more generalized, as in "Anything else?"  I think there is an understanding that if people have a comment on the program, whether it is from a BOR or from parents or from themselves or any other source, they will bring it up, without even being asked.     But asking for it specifically is fine.

 

As for the specific items of encouraging patrol spirit and using patrol method more, I would think these would be things that the SM would address with the PLC.  They wouldn't necessarily even be discussed in our committee meetings, except as part of the SM's report of what he is doing.

[blw2]

exactly!  Right before the anything else, it might be a standing bullet point of "feedback to the SM", just so that folks start thinking about that specifically as a need.... nothing more than that really.

 

and I agree, that should be something the SM would address with the PLC.  It's needed feedback I think in our case.  
My example more specifically is this....everyone knows there's a general lack of "spirit", in terms of no patrol yells, etc...  That in of itself isn't that big of a deal I suppose and so it doesn't seem (to me anyway) like its being addressed.  But what i am seeing is a more systemic thing.  Our patrols meet only as a patrol pretty much only to plan the menu and duty roster for upcoming campouts, buy grub and cook together as a patrol.  

At camp, there really doesn't seem to be any formal patrol areas except friends tents are more or less next to each other.  Again not really a problem in and of itself.

I never see patrol flags.  Again not a problem

and at camporee recently there were no patrol yells or even a troop yell heard.

None of these things seem like a problem by themselves.... if the scouts aren't interested in a patrol yell.... hey, that's ok I suppose...but what I don't see is patrols sticking together and bonding tightly.  i don't really see much taking care of others in your patrol.  I don't see any outward pride in being a member of the X,Y, or Z patrol.  And I never see or hear anything of a patrol having a patrol meeting or a patrol outing.  These observations have been confirmed in questions during BORs.

 

I'm thinking that all of these things they aren't doing might be tools that could be encouraged and used to foster a better patrol method troop....and so that's what I'm planning to suggest to the SM through the 'committee'

[Eagledad]

I am looking at your post blw2 as if you are asking how an adult in the troop can make a program suggestion to the SM? I understand the frustration. I myself have seen the frustration of bucking the SM. OK, I know bucking isn't exactly what you meant, but that is how some SM's take it.

 

To be fair, I've always advised committees to search for Scoutmasters that fit their group goals for the troop. Everyone should be on board with the Scoutmaster and their program, so really the committee, not the scoutmaster should have the vision.

 

The problem is that rarely do committees as a whole have much of an understanding of how the program works. So they really don't have collective ideas of what kind of program they want for their sons, much less a vision. As a result, 9 times out of 10 committees are just happy to find someone to take the responsibility and hope that all goes well.

 

And lets be Frank about it, Scoutmastering is a huge responsibility. Anyone one who has not been a SM can't understand or respect the weight of the position. I aged 10 years in my first year on the job. It's not an easy position to fill.

 

Personally I believe Scoutmaster's should have the humility to listen to ideas, suggestions and even criticism. Not so much to listen to committee members yammer about program ideas, but more to listen to scouts equally in stature. But if you get the humility of one, you get the other. 

 

Here is the problem of Scoutmasters listening to advice from parents, Scoutmasters in general have a vision and a plan. Does your ideas work within the Scoutmaster's vision and plan. Example: I am a boy run patrol method fanatic. I eat, breath, and live the ideals of using the patrol method to develop citizens of character and leaders of integrity. To that point, one would think that you and I could build a great program together. Yet, in our discussions over the years, you are pro NSP and Aged Based Patrols. From my experience, I don't like using those patrols in my program because they don't perform to my expectations (vision). I have a vision and a plan. Your vision and plan, while the are similar, are still divergent.

 

Does your ideas work within his vision and plan of your Scoutmaster? 

 

You think I'm tough, there is one SM on this forum who in the years he has been here has never been wrong. Humility? How can a committee person even get to speak to him? He likely wouldn't even know your name.

 

I don't really know of a formal opportunity in the program for expressing ideas of change, but I think you can figure out a way of creating that discussion. Still, one must approach the "keeper of the vision" with respect if you hope for an open mind to your ideas. Then if those ideas don't interrupt his vision and program, maybe he has the humility to consider your suggestion.

 

I wish you luck because you have some great ideas.

 

Barry

[blw2]

yeah, well not really asking so much... mostly bringing it up as a real world right-now example of the kind of thing a committee member might observe and suggest.

 

But your are correct in a way too.  Something one has to tread lightly with, from a few angles.  Bucking is just one...  Also, something I have been working on since I have been rather new with the troop is that I am not really in a position to drive change.... I think a person in my situation has to focus on being cooperative as much as reasonably possible.... and not complaining and such.  Build trust and take little steps towards change.  Now a new SM or CC is in a much better position to take those bigger steps or jumps forchange....

 

And I think you are also correct that committee's often don't have a good fix on things.  Often CC's don't and few MC's really dig deep into the program.  There's no really good training for them, and no real motivation for most to do their own research.  A person has to be a scouting-nerd like me to want that....  I would suppose that usually the MC is a bunch of parents that can't or don't want to be SM but either want to help a little or get pressured into it.

[Eagledad]

 

 

And I think you are also correct that committee's often don't have a good fix on things.  Often CC's don't and few MC's really dig deep into the program.  There's no really good training for them, and no real motivation for most to do their own research.  

I tried to get our CCs to attend the Scoutmaster trainings so they would have a better understanding of the program. In fact, while I was on the District Training committee, I encouraged all the troops to send their CC. But rarely did I see them in the classes. 

 

I'm glad you have a drive for this stuff, I hope you can become at least an ASM so you have more leverage with ideas.

 

As for BORs, I would like to try the idea that a Scout's parents get to talk to a BOR while there son is doing his, so that they can speak their minds about the program. Maybe that is something you could experiment with.

 

Barry

Edited January 23, 2017 by Eagledad

[qwazse]

Best committee training was through 75 yards of laurel thicket suggested as a shortcut by the SM!

His GPS really paid for itself that day.

 

But on the plus side, the smaller the boy, the faster he could get through that stuff. So it wound up that the were necessarily the ones figuring out the next move with the skills that they had.

[KenD500]

In the 2nd volume of the Unit Leader Guidebook, there is a Troop Self Assessment.  I (SM) had my ASMs & CC fill it out.  

 

The CC is invited to all of the SM Corps meetings.  The CC later gave the same self assessment to the Committee.  The Committee completed assessment really identified areas where I need to train my adults more or communicate better.

 

I find a lot of the parents don't know the mission/aims/methods of Scouting or how we apply them.  I'm trying to correct this.

[Eagledad]

 

I find a lot of the parents don't know the mission/aims/methods of Scouting or how we apply them.  I'm trying to correct this.

I scheduled a parents/leaders meeting twice a year to review the Aims and Methods along with Mission and Goals. I did that for several years and learned that 9 out of 10 parents could care less. But, I also did it so they could hold me accountable.

 

Barry

[blw2]

I tried to get our CCs to attend the Scoutmaster trainings so they would have a better understanding of the program. In fact, while I was on the District Training committee, I encouraged all the troops to send their CC. But rarely did I see them in the classes. ....

having just completely IOLS (finally, took me a long time to find a course that worked) and now fully trained to be a SM.... I can say with some authority that I'm not all that sure it would help all that much..... well actually the SM specific and IOLS might serve as an ok intro to someone in an MC role I suppose.... because that's about how I would rank the whole course of study.... basic introduction.  There was no real meat to any of it in teaching the patrol method.... what it is or how to use it.

 

In the 2nd volume of the Unit Leader Guidebook, there is a Troop Self Assessment.  I (SM) had my ASMs & CC fill it out.  

 

The CC is invited to all of the SM Corps meetings.  The CC later gave the same self assessment to the Committee.  The Committee completed assessment really identified areas where I need to train my adults more or communicate better.

 

I find a lot of the parents don't know the mission/aims/methods of Scouting or how we apply them.  I'm trying to correct this.

 

I'd bet a lot of MC's never look at such a book, let alone own a copy.

[Stosh]

Somehow I get the feeling the thread is a wee bit off topic.  I don't see the CC or MC's needing to take all kinds of extensive training to understand the program of the BSA,  They should do rather well just with the leader specific training already in place.  Having a meeting for all parents isn't what the OP was talking about.  From the title, all one is asking for is what did the boy say in the BOR conversation that might be valuable to the SM/ASM team to improve the program in the troop.  The boy says he's tired of getting bullied by his PL, that might be something the SM should know about.  If the boys are upset with the way the patrols are decided by the adults, that's something that might need to be addressed.  It's nothing more than a quick meeting to give feedback to the SM/ASM's so they can adjust their approach to the program if necessary.

 

Even if the BOR asks the boy how it's going for him in Scouts and the boy says, great.  Doesn't it seem appropriate to let the SM/ASM know this?    With the SM/ASM's NOT sitting in on BOR's, wouldn't it seem only natural to let them know what the boys say about how things are being run?  If this information isn't going to be used for the betterment of the troop, why are BOR members even asking these questions?  Sounds like a waste of time to me.