Foward or Fold?

[mk9750]

Blaze,

 

I think I can appreciate the frustration you feel. I've been intensely involved with two other organizations that have died while I was deeply committed to them (one bowling league and one golf league), and it's a personal hurt that is difficult to make go away.

 

If I can relate some of my experiences to you, from the perspective of being in a similiar position, I'd like you to look very carefully at Shell's last post here. I think she is saying something very important, although I think she is trying very hard to be nice, and it might not be obvious what she thinks.

 

A large part of your Pack's problem is the group of five of you that have kept it going so well for the past 9 years or so. You've done a wonderful job, it seems - Happy kids, vibrant program, etc. - But, in doing so, people who have come into the program with their boys either were not encouraged to particiapte, or feared stepping into the clique that you five seemed to create. This happened both times in the leagues I spoke about. One or two people who ran the league for years on end, never giving up any responsiblity, never asking for help, always being more like OZ behind the curtain than someone looking to recruit new blood. For various reasons, people started leaving. Some because they were just moving on. Some because they had a tift with "the boss", and didn't want to be associated with him or her anymore. Whatever the reason, membership started dying. When it become obvious that the ship was sinking, both people abondoned ship, leaving a shinking vessel with a few committed people looking for more captain and crew. It's kind of tough finding people to get excited about taking over then. What's sad about this is that these people, like you and the other four of your core group, did this out of the goodness of your heart, your commitment to a quality program. It was just misguided. And now, it's time for you guys to jump off, but no one wants to take on the difficult job of righting the ship.

 

My suggestion would also be to include your Unit Commisioner and / or you DE. My guess is that you have never dealt with how to keep Scouting alive in a situation like this, but they have. I'm betting that they pursue Bob's angle of involving the Charter Organization, because, whether or not you want to call your situation real world and Bob's position a fantasy, Bob is right - His description is how it SHOULD be. And it has the best chance of success if it is that way: If the Charter Organization commits to using the program of the BSA, and commits to finding the resources to make it happen.

 

Can you close the Pack down? In reality, your actions can cause it to happen if no one else steps in. But it doesn't sound like that's what you want. Who knows? Maybe that will end up being the result anyway. But if you DO want the Pack to survive, take Shell's and Bob's advice. At least it provides hope.

 

Good luck.

 

Mark

[Bob White]

Blaze,

Charter organizations charge you for meeting space when you are the unit that meets "there", rather than "their" unit.

 

Unless the band, the wrestling team, the chorus, the basketball team, girls Club and the Natioanal Honor Society have to pay for their space then neither should you. The difference is the school realizes that those organizations are "theirs" and your unit has lost that relationship.

 

Never select a leader because no one else will do it, not even if its your spouse. Select as a leader beacuse they have the characteristics needed to to the job. You don't want some body being a scout leader, you want somebody you select for their skills and characteristics.

Never choose someone because they "want" to be the leader choose them because "you want them".

[Fat Old Guy]

I've seen other organizations get into trouble when a small core of people were doing everything for too long. New people didn't want to get involved because they saw that everything was taken care of or sometimes offers of help from new people are rebuffed.

 

The lifeblood of virtually any organization is getting new people involved. Even in cases where there's been a president in place for what seems to be life, new people should be getting involved in different aspects, possibly organizing new events or programs.

 

What can you do? First thing is to emphasize that Scouts and Sports can co-exist. During baseball season, half of our troop vanishes. That's life. We may not like it but that's life. Maybe the den leaders need to look at moving meeting nights or even planning activities around the sports "Jimmy has a game on Monday so we'll go to the game in uniform!"

 

Ask parents to step up and take a job. Don't just give a general plea. Go up to Mr. Smith and say, "We need a Den Leader, can you do it? If not, could you share the job?"

 

 

[ozemu]

I have not read the detail of the previous posts because I dont always understand things across the pacific but you seem to be getting good local advice.

 

My advice from a very stand back position is that if you like Scouting then do what you must do and if the pack folds just move on as many kids as you can into other packs etc and then do the same yourself. Your energy and enthusiasm are needed elsewhere. There is always a job going. The cubs will continue to have a great time somewhere else.

 

I can think of two other jobs that are available and I would try my hand at. Different to being SM but a change is as good as a holiday and Scouting is MY hobby after all.

[Blaze66]

Thanks Ozemu I think that was the answer I was looking for.

[EagleWB]

Blaze66 I would follow the advice of ozemu. The best choice, if all else fails, is move. Get the boys to other packs in order to keep them in the program. Anyone reading this thread please heed the other advice given also. It is the best way to keep any organization running strong for a long time.

[Shell in WA- USA]

Well, if that's all you were doing is to get "permission" to move on, then by all means "move on." I thought you were asking how to save the pack for when you all retire.

[mk9750]

Shell,

 

We both must have come to the same realization at the same time. I thought Blaze was just frustrated at his situation, and couldn't see through the smoke caused by a difficult situation, and had no idea how to keep the Pack alive. A number of us offered a few ideas how to keep the Pack going.

 

Blaze's rejection of those ideas, coupled with a singlemindedness to shut the Pack down makes me wonder if the issue here isn't one of his ego. Kind of an "If I can't (won't) be the boss anymore, than no one will. We'll just shut the whole thing down".

 

If that's the case, then there is some redemption in the fact he wants to make any effort at all at keeping boys in Scouting. But beyond that, it's just plain selfish to walk away without a real effort at saving the unit.

 

Now, if I'm wrong, and Blaze just hasn't considered the possiblity that the Pack could continue without him, then I'd encourage him to read through the suggestions posted before these again for some very valuable ideas.

 

And perhaps, the best thing we can hope for is that Blaze's Unit Commisioner, or DE sees this and recognizes this Pack, and steps in before permanent damage is done.

 

Mark

[Blaze66]

Maybe I wasn't real clear in the beginning when I started this thread, or maybe I left out things that I didn't feel were important to the question. So here is the rest of the story, and get out the popcorn because it's a long one!

 

I started my ADULT scouting when my son joined Tigers in this same pack. When we came in there were 4 leaders in the whole pack. That included our present COR who was also the Webelos leader, our former CM who was also running the Wolf den and two other den leaders. That was it! Four people running the pack. Now sure there were other people listed on the charter but where they were or who they were I haven't got a clue. It was not until my son became a Bear that I got involved in any way in the leadership of the pack. The CM at the time came to me and said will you be our CC and at first I said no but then she said well all you have to do is sign some papers once in a while for advancement and thats it. Sorry folks when your a Cub Scout you don't always realize what the positions in scouting are really suppose to do so it goes for new or just a couple of years into scouting parents! It wasn't until I took over as CC and went to my first training that I realized how the leadership in the pack was really suppose to be set up! So after training, I tried, to get things organized in the pack the way they were suppose to be. Put together a committie, started going to round table, met regularly with the COR and tried my best to do everything that was expected of a CC. Well the CM we had at the time, she kept bucking the system. Kept telling me we didn't need all this and things were running just fine before and it was just other hands to put in the pot so to speak.

 

Then the next year, my sons first in Webelos, the former Webelos leader, who also was the COR, decided he didn't want to be a den leader anymore. So I was like great! Here is a chance for me to get out of this CC stuff and maybe try a hand at Webelos. So I made the move. Because honestly at the time, I had no intention of staying with the Pack as long as I have. I was just moving along with my son, trying to support him and help out the pack at the same time while he was moving through. Once he crossed over to Boy Scouts I was leaving the pack too!

 

Well first sign of trouble I noticed was when they rechartered I was still listed as the CC which I had resigned from. Then the next kind of kink that was thrown into things was unexpectantly a friend of my wife's becomes a Tiger Den leader and asks my wife if she will help her out as an assistant, which she did. Then about two months into a new year the friend leaves and dumps everything on my wife! Well she finished the year out and loved it so much she decided she wanted to do wolves the next year. Well then all just goes kinda par for the next year and then my son crosses over. Well it was my full intention to leave, and I made my intentions known to everyone. They found a new Webelos leader who once he found out what all he had to do, came back to me and asked if I would be his assistant and kind of mentor him through getting the next year's Webelos II group to AOL before I really left. So I very reluctantly agreed. He was doing a fine job and I stayed way in the background just giving him advise when he asked for it. Then AOL got here for the Webelos II and this guy up and leaves. He got a new job and his hours changed and so he didn't want any responsibilities outside work to deal with. Then the pack was in a bind because they asked two other parents to come foward and help out but they declined. So they came back to me and asked me if I would consider staying on through the rest of the year. Again, I reluctantly said yes.

 

So everything is still going kind of good, till the end of the year and then out of the blue the CM says she has had enough and is leaving. Well that threw us for a curve, because we were at a shortage of leaders in the pack to begin with and none of the leaders we had wanted the job of CM. So we just went through the summer months without a CM, hoping that sometime before the new year began we would either have someone step foward or during round up we would snag some new leadership blood and free up one of our leaders to at least be acting CM.

 

Well sure enough roundup was great! Through some hard planning and really getting out into the schools before hand we had a record year as far as new scout signups. We got some great people in too. Right off the bat we spotted some potental leaders. About a month after they had been there we approached 6 parents all seperately and asked them to consider becoming leaders in the pack. All but one accepted, but we were still without a CM. At our next leaders meeting we invited all the new parents whom we had talked too, to attend. During the meeting we explained to them everything I just told you above about the CM and that we needed one. Well none wanted to jump that deep into the water that quick, which honestly they shouldn't have had to do anyway, they just didn't know enough about scouting yet to get that involved. So after about a three hour meeting, and bouncing ideas around the room, a couple of the other leaders asked my wife why she wouldn't do it. She clearly had the drive and the know how. And even though she had only been in scouting for two years, she had brought some new fresh ideas to the pack that really boosted the program. Well at first she flat out said no, and basically so did I because I knew if she took over I would never get out! Then after about two weeks of tossing over it, she decided that if they would help her out so she could go back and be a Tiger Cub coach too, that she would do it. Thus sealed our fate...

 

Of that 5 out of 6 new leaders, one wanted to do Webelos so I was like YES im gona get out, but he asked me if I would stay AGAIN through AOL so he could get up to speed. For a third time, I reluctantly said yes. Now definately by this time I am clearly not thinking about myself because if I were, I would have left a long time ago! But being so close to the pack for so long, I didn't want to dissapoint the boys which was the only concern I really had. Well not long after these new leaders started, trouble began. The new Wolf leader, who said he was an Eagle Scout, he just stopped comming one night. No phone call, no warning, no nothing... just didn't show up. We tried to call and his phone had been disconnected. Called his work and no one there knew where he was either. So that threw us in a small crisis because we didn't have anyone to run the den meetings. Thank God for one of our Den Cheifs and a Parent or it would have really been a disaster. The parent stepped up and said he would take over as long as we left the den cheif with him to help out. So were off and running again. Not quite... then that parent's work hours changed. So he wasn't getting to the meetings till about mid way through them. Finally it ended up one of the other parent's and the Den Cheif finished out the year, but that other parent would not take on a leadership role other than what they had done to help out.

 

Then real trouble began. Right after AOL, the new Webelos leader gets kind of ticked off because he came in expecting more camping than the pack was doing. Him and one of the other den leaders decided they wanted to do DEN CAMPING as I talked about in another thread. Well sure Webelos can do camping as a den, but this guy wanted them to do backpacking and primative camping. Well we explained to them that Webelos could camp as a den, but the other den couldn't and that their overnighters would have to be some kind of family car type camping because you just don't take Webelos on High Adventure type camping trips. Well he got ticked off. Said he joined scouting with his son to do some real camping and if all the pack was going to do was car camping then he wasn't staying around. So he left, and so did the other den leader we had just aquired, plus two months later this guy's wife, who was an assistant in Tiger Cubs and we had been eyeing her to take over one of the dens next year.. She leaves too without a reason given but I am sure it was from pressure at home. So now were back in basically the same boat we were right after the CM said she was leaving. Only saving grace was the other two new leaders we had.

 

Plus while all this is going on, the largest business in town, employing over 1500, shuts down because it was moving operations to Mexico. The town goes into a depression, houses go up for sale left and right and people start moving. Our pack went from about 40 down to 15 in six months. We had a spring roundup, first one ever, to try and get new boys in before Day Camp started in the summer and gained 2 boys. Fall round up we only got 3 new scouts. Spring round up the following year we got 1 new one and fall of last year we got no new scouts. All the while other scouts were moving away or crossing over. This year we have 14 boys. It was depressing to say the least.

 

Last year we thought we had a solution to the whole situation because a pack in the next town over was having growing pains and half of the people there wanted to split off. At a round table one night I suggested to the ACM of the busting pack that he come over to our pack and make a new home and then they would win and so would we (leaders that wanted to get out that is). And after he came and met with the COR and a few others he had almost decided to do that, but then.... Thanks to our DE, who gets paid based on number of boys and units in his district, talks them into starting a NEW pack in the town they were currently in. Then shortly after that he (DE) gets moved from our district to a larger district.

 

So as you can see alot is going on in the background here. Now were up to this point in time. We have three older leader, and when I say older I don't mean in age we are all under 37. And we have two newer leaders. The three of us who have been here the longest want out. Were just tired... Burned out... and feel like if we don't get out the boys are going to start to suffer. We want new blood to come in and take over and keep things going. Especially me because I have found a great new home in the Boy Scout Troop and hopefully will be there for a long long time in some position, and the pack feeds the troop with new scouts so if the pack goes, then one day the troop will suffer too. We have tried recruiting new parents, but we just don't have a pool to draw from. And that's not because we don't feel that they wouldn't do a good job, its just they aren't there! They either work hours that keep them from giving up any time, or they just don't care and scouts is just a baby sitter for an hour each week while they go off to Walmart or somewhere else. Belive me we have dug all through the barrel and asked almost every parent in our pack. We just haven't had any luck. And its not like we just started going through this process, we really have been doing it for almost a year!

 

Some of the advice everyone has given we already tried. I went to our COR and the SM of the Troop 5 months ago and explained it all to them and asked for their help. The COR said he would go back to the CO and talk to them. He did, but like I have said in this thread and Others, they don't care! They were like oh well were sorry to hear that, but does that mean the two classrooms upstairs will be freed up now for us to use??

 

Then we got a new DE about three months ago and he along with the district commish came to a meeting one night to introduce himself. We asked him to stay till the end of the meeting and then we explained our situation to him. He said well sounds like you need some help... I will see what I can do... I will get back with you... That was three months ago. Haven't seen or heard from him again since except when he sent our recharter pack over last month, and he didn't say anything to us then except if there was anything missing from the packet to let him know and off he drove.

 

So my question was not really how to save the pack. Folks we have tried... Maybe not as much as some of you would have, and maybe not with all the ideas yall have given, but Cub Scouts is not our whole life and we don't have anymore to give without sacraficing something else in our lives, and we are not willing to do that. After all, neither of us three have a kid in Cub Scouts anymore, and haven't for almost 5 years! The only reason we have stayed this long is because we didn't want to let the boys down. We felt like by us leaving and no one else there to take over that the boys would leave scouting period rather than try to find another pack to go too.

 

So the question was not, how can I save the pack, the question was how can we fold the pack with out loosing the scouts we have right now from scouting all together?

 

We get no response from our CO, we get no response from our DE, we get no response from our DC... So it might be short of some of you that read these posts expectations of what we should do, but we have done all we feel we could have done or want to do. We are deeply upset. We don't in anyway want to see the pack die, but we can't continue to be the only ones that keep it going because as you have said yourselves you get to the point that your not having fun anymore and it begins to show and then you start loosing scouts because they aren't having fun anymore. Before it gets to that point we want out.

 

We know our CO won't step up and do anything when we leave, and thus the pack will have to fold. So our original intent in this post was to find out ways in which we could try and keep the scouts we have now in scouting, even though their pack was folding.

 

We met last night and made a decision and later I will tell you what happend but right now you and I need a break! LOL

[Shell in WA- USA]

Blaze,

 

No offense, but I'm willing to state that at least 90% of the posters to this forum have similiar stories to their scouting backgrounds. I know mine is at least that longer, probably longer because I'm a single Mom of three boys, all still in Boy Scouting. And I work just as hard, I am no different than you or other scouters who have similiar stories just different circumstances. We all "deserve" a pat on the back. But I don't want one. My only intention is actually a selfish one. To make Scouting a terrific and life altering experience for my three boys Like I and my brother had in Scouting growing up. And whatever other boys also grab on and benefit, I've truely been doing God's calling. Which to me, is even of higher importance to me. And I can't expect other adults to do run a program that I expect for my boys without contributing myself. So I voluntarily step in and do whatever I can at whatever level of Scouting I'm needed. For I, as we all, are in it for the boys not ourselves.

 

And I don't mean that what you have done is a small feat and not worth the pat on the back your looking for. For we all know that many parents don't care about what their kids are doing in Scouts like we do. And it takes those of us who do step in "make the pack grow." Make the boy grow.

 

But don't look for permission to move on. Yes, you have served your time and beyond and you have done a great job. But yes, move on, follow your heart and do what you need to do, even if it's to get into other areas of Scouting or outside of scouting. You have done well in "serving" the pack. You have definately served your time.

 

And no matter when you do move on, there never is a "good" or "better" time to do it. You can't save the world, but the dent you make should be a good one, and you've made a great dent! The boys and parents left will find their way. Either parents will step in..or not. Either the boys will find other packs...or not. If the DE is smart, he'll be stepping in to get the pack going again to kept up his needed numbers for Quality District. But that's not your concern, God will take care of what's left behind.

 

It's clear you have made up your mind to move on, as well as you should. Find another nitch in the world that you can serve and that you will feel renewed in doing. It doesn't even have to be Scouting. If you believe in God, then now is a time to pray for direction. Trust me, He will direct your new path.

 

The original question you had on your first post was to "Forward or Fold?" I believe you have gotten great advise by fellow Scouters here for both ways. You should now know which way to go.

 

God Bless!

 

[Fat Old Guy]

" We all "deserve" a pat on the back. But I don't want one."

 

Sure you do. We all do. We all like it when you bust your tail and people say, "Hey, you did a good job."

[Shell in WA- USA]

FOG,

What I mean to say is that I don't do the job to get a pat on the back, I get a pat on the back because I did the job. Make sense?

 

I'm not in Scouting so that I can say, "Look at me, I'm a good girl, I am." I'm an adult Scouter because I believe in the program and I want to help further it along for the boys. First my own, then the 40+ scouts in the troop, then the 400+ scouts in the district! Not those that are directed on me but when I see the positive influences I've had on the boys (and the Adults for that matter, that's my "pat on the back!"

[Fat Old Guy]

I don't care about the pat on the back either, I'm on record as only doing this stuff for the paycheck. My DE promises that it is in the mail.

[Blaze66]

I don't look for pats on the bach either. Not looking one now. I dont really care who notices what I do because I don't do it to impress anyone or to draw attention to myself. I started out doing scouts for the same reason you did shell, because I wanted to make it the best experience I could for my son.

 

And I think everyone still kind of misses the point of the original question. I am not looking a pat on the back, or someone to tell me its ok to move on. We are just in a situation like I explained where we want to go and the CO won't do anything to help out and all our efforts to bring in new leadership to take over have pretty much washed up. We just want to make sure when we go that there is some way we can try and help keep the boys we have in the pack now in scouting!

 

So right or wrong this is what we decided Tuesday night. We are going to talk to the DE again next month at round table (in like two weeks). We are going to finish out the rest of our year which ends in May. Then we are going to do our three summer time activities. If by the end of the summer the DE has not said anything came over and tried to talk with the CO with us to work anything out and just pretty much done what he has done so far which is nothing... Then we are going to go talk to the other CM's in the area let them know what is going on then have a meeting with our scout parents and suggest that the boys in our pack go visit other area packs and see if they would be interested in transfering.

 

Right or wrong there it is.

[Shell in WA- USA]

As I said earlier, if your DE is interested in keeping his job, he has to keep his numbers up. Part (a big part) of his pay depends on the number of Packs, Troops and Crews in the district. And unfortunately, your pack won't be the first or last to close down. I'm sure the DE will step in and together with the UC, DC and CR, they will figure something out. And if the other pack parents care about their children, they will also figure something out. Give them your notice and step away.

 

I guess we're just beating a dead horse now, aren't we?!?