IOLS this weekend

[blw2]

@@SSScout mentions "death by power point".  I guess that's the fear we all have walking into something like this....hoping that this one will not be PPT based and not 1 days worth of stuff stretched to fill 3!

 

and I surely didn't mean to imply I know it all.  basics I've got down fairly well i suppose, but there's much that i don't know or have only read about....

 

But all this mention of WB teaching the Patrol Method.... then why is it that we have so many bead wearers, that are also IOLS trained and experienced but still don't really practice the patrol method?  And I don't mean just my unit.... a lot that I have seen

a simple concept but very hard to hurdle to jump I suppose

 

I took it a few years ago so I'm not sure how it has changed but it was a condensed road to first class. I've been camping for more decades than I care to admit and I have advanced first aid certifications. I thought I knew it all when I went to the training but I still managed to learn a lot and have a good time.

 

Go with an open mind and remain with your patrol. I'd advise against going to eat with your troop. Afterall, would you want your kids who are going through NYLT sneaking away to go join your troop at summer camp?

 

Thanks for this reminder, that one can never really "know it all".  I'm reminded of a course I took a long time ago through work on threaded fasteners.  I went into this thing as a degreed mechanical engineer that had focused on machine design, and at that point in time had a few years experience as a Maintenance Engineer....and above all that i had grown up since I was small swinging wrenches, completely rebuilding small engines and working on cars....

All I can say is that i never knew that there was so much to know about tightening a nut or a screw!

 

 

 

I was thinking about this thread earlier this AM.  The challenge really with classes like this, is that it really needs to be many different classes because of the wide variation of targeted students.

• you have the folks that have never camped, were never a scout, and know nothing about the scouting program, and nothing about the outdoors
• you have the folks that are avid and experienced campers, but do not know scouts or the scouting way
• and you have folks that have been around scouting in one form or another, but have never camped
• or the long term scouters that don't know that they don't know the patrol method
• or folks that are very much up to speed on scouting and the patrol method and are avid campers/outdoorsmen
• or the experienced cub scouters, in their various experience levels with camping and outdoors
• and on and on....

I suppose the seemingly infinite combinations could be simplified down to maybe 4

scouters or not

outdoorsman or not

but still..... all of these need to be lumped together into a class where they can all benefit

seems like a hard nut to crack, and so my hat is off already, to those teaching the course for even trying!!!

Edited January 11, 2017 by blw2

[Eagle94-A1]

Our council once did a poll of Scoutmasters to learn why they felt the Council Youth Leadership course JLTC (NYLT) wasn't working. Top on the list the Scoutmasters said there was a disconnect between the troop leaders and what the course was teaching the scouts. How could they support their scouts if they don't know what they learned.

 

Seen this happen too many times. Even when a council offers a pre and post course session that includes

 

@@SSScout mentions "death by power point".  I guess that's the fear we all have walking into something like this....hoping that this one will not be PPT based and not 1 days worth of stuff stretched to fill 3!

 

and I surely didn't mean to imply I know it all.  basics I've got down fairly well i suppose, but there's much that i don't know or have only read about....

 

But all this mention of WB teaching the Patrol Method.... then why is it that we have so many bead wearers, that are also IOLS trained and experienced but still don't really practice the patrol method?  And I don't mean just my unit.... a lot that I have seen

a simple concept but very hard to hurdle to jump I suppose

 

 

Thanks for this reminder, that one can never really "know it all".  I'm reminded of a course I took a long time ago through work on threaded fasteners.  I went into this thing as a degreed mechanical engineer that had focused on machine design, and at that point in time had a few years experience as a Maintenance Engineer....and above all that i had grown up since I was small swinging wrenches, completely rebuilding small engines and working on cars....

All I can say is that i never knew that there was so much to know about tightening a nut or a screw!

 

 

 

I was thinking about this thread earlier this AM.  The challenge really with classes like this, is that it really needs to be many different classes because of the wide variation of targeted students.

• you have the folks that have never camped, were never a scout, and know nothing about the scouting program, and nothing about the outdoors
• you have the folks that are avid and experienced campers, but do not know scouts or the scouting way
• and you have folks that have been around scouting in one form or another, but have never camped
• or the long term scouters that don't know that they don't know the patrol method
• or folks that are very much up to speed on scouting and the patrol method and are avid campers/outdoorsmen
• or the experienced cub scouters, in their various experience levels with camping and outdoors
• and on and on....

I suppose the seemingly infinite combinations could be simplified down to maybe 4

scouters or not

outdoorsman or not

but still..... all of these need to be lumped together into a class where they can all benefit

seems like a hard nut to crack, and so my hat is off already, to those teaching the course for even trying!!!

 

One thing I have done recruiting staff is to find those who need IOLS but have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to to teach sections of the course they know, and sit in on parts they need work on. For example, the combat medic I know did the  First aid section, helped in several others, and sat in on the rest.  Etc.

SMs so that they know what is goignon and how to support the Scouts, it still happens.

[Ankylus]

I took IOLS perhaps 10 or more years ago, and I do not remember an overnight component or grouping into patrols. Hmmm....perhaps because I was taking it at a week long summer camp during the day when the scouts were at MB classes.

 

Anyway, I remember learning nothing, as everything was old hat.

 

But then, you have to remember what IOLS is for...it's so that Boy Scout leaders know and understand the skills they are supposed to make sure are being imparted to their scouts.  While I suspect that most of the members of this board are already conversant with those skills, national can't be sure of that. They have to make sure even the outdoors and scouting novices are up to speed. 

 

I can see it, but I wish there had been a way to "test out" of it.

[Eagledad]

One thing I have done recruiting staff is to find those who need IOLS but have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to to teach sections of the course they know, and sit in on parts they need work on. For example, the combat medic I know did the  First aid section, helped in several others, and sat in on the rest.  Etc.

SMs so that they know what is goignon and how to support the Scouts, it still happens.

This is a great idea. 

 

Barry

[SSScout]

"Death by Power Point"  existed long before the advent of digital projection.   A teacher reading a list of stuff off the poster.  Pointing out the list of stuff in  your book. 

I once took a class in Anthropology, the professor listed was well known in his field, one of the reasons I signed up for it.  He unfortunately  gave lectures that were re-hashes of his textbook. When he asked for questions (In writing!) before the midterm, he would answer by saying "you'll find that in chapter 6". or "We covered that on Wednesday. Check your class notes".  Wonderful researcher,  poor teacher.

It is THAT kind of teaching/learning I would avoid.  IOLS should be adults practicing Scouting, not learning Scouting.   Patrol method?  Adults in Patrols, working together to plan, accomplish, teach each other.  One knows, one learns.   Peer instruction is often remembered better than  adult instruction.   But then, the adult teacher that can get down on the Student's level  will often be more successful (and remembered!) than the didactic professor.

Teaching knots?    Get  beside  or behind    the Scout and let his hands follow yours.  Stand in front and try to show the technique backwards?  Nah, doesn't work as well.

Tell someone the Patrol Method?  or let them live it?   Which might make it stick?  Wood Badgers will revert to the "Adult Led "  Troop model, if not confronted with their error, but hey, at least the Scouts are out in the woods.   They are out in the woods, aren't they?

[blw2]

and then there's the different types of learners to consider..... visual, auditory, kinesthetic, etc...

 

ha ha, yeah, I suppose it's not only power point.  Your post reminds me of see one of our older scouts trying to "teach" some of the younger scouts by reading to them out of the book..... then later hearing that same older scout in a BOR express frustration that the younger scouts don't listen and don't want to learn.

Is that death by Scout Handbook?

[Eagledad]

As a Scoutmaster, I struggled with adult training because I believe most students don't leave with all that much more than what they came with. What do they get? Well in most cases new friends and a respect for living outdoors overnight. After that, they go back to their units and learn what the units need for them to learn.

 

Everyone reveres the old Woodbadge Course as a great teacher of the patrol method, or troop method or whatever. But it was not intended to be a course to teach those methods, it was designed as a course to demonstrate different styles of teaching. The old course ran into problems when the majority of participants were never scouts. As a result of their ignorance, they took all the activities of the course literally and duplicated their own troop program from that experience. As SSScout pointed out, the course unintentionally drove the program more adult run. So the BSA rightly killed it and the course today is the result.

 

But as a SM, I dreaded the passionate newly trained adults who were really more eager to experience the program as a scout than an adult. We are boy run patrol method troop. The adults are usually 100 yards away and not required to teach, train or even role model because the scouts do most of those responsibilities. So I found myself changing their enthusiasm toward a more boring direction of observing and cheer leading. Oh, we do advise, mentor and advise now and then, but more by request or reactionary mode. There was no room for adult Boy Scout wanabees in my program. I needed adults who respected and understood the value of SCOUTS making bad decisions and developing good habits from those decisions.

 

That doesn't mean I don't respect adult leader training. I was a trainer at the Council, District and Unit Levels. I created several curriculums with the intention of enhancing the learning experience. But my approach to educating adults was the same as my approach for the scouts; I tried to give them experiences that lead to self confidence, not expertise of skills. For example I spent more time at IOLS teaching the adults how to not be afraid of woods tools than how to be an expert with the tools. Training classes don' t have time to turn ignorance into expertise, so I tried to give them something that actually did stick with them after the course. I believe the real value of learning in Wood Badge comes from the participants Ticket Items because they have to actually practice the subject. 

 

All that being said, our adults did enjoy our program. We often have 6 to 10 adults camping with us just because it was a relaxing outdoor atmosphere. And after learning how to observe at a distance without interfering, the adults found a respect for watching their sons grow in a patrol method program. And once the light was turned on, they were as passionate for boys learning from their decisions as the Scoutmaster. 

 

Barry
 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Eagledad

[blw2]

OK, so it was a good weekend.  Now I'm officially fully trained.

 

Good bunch of folks putting on the class

 

Sadly, I can't honestly point to any one thing I learned and didn't know before.... and I regrettably can't say that i am any better prepared in any way to be a SM.  Not the instructors' fault or doing at all....just the nature of the class.  Everything was just a gloss over general introduction to some core concepts....

ditto for the SM specifics course

In fact I'm bothered a bit that it's possible for a person to be fully trained and yet be so ill-prepared for the job

 

I did pick up a memory aid this weekend, to remember which way to flip the loop for a bowline....seems like I always get it wrong at first....and a fellow student taught be a one handed bowline trick while we were goofing around on the side...

 

I have come to the conclusion that very few scouters really truly know what it means when a person says patrol method.  It was touched on during my SM specifics....and touched on even less in IOLS....and in observing the other troops (this course was held at/during a camporee) I'm doubtful that many troops have tight functioning and cohesive patrols.  We have more of a troop mentality than a patrol mentality I think, as a general rule....

There was really nothing in the IOLS class to teach how to teach, how to apply the patrol method, working with scouts, or any of it....

 

I honestly think that doing three very easy things would prepare any potential scouter to be an effective SM, much more than the required training

1) read BP's "Aides to Scoutmastership"

2) read Clark Green's "So Far So Good"

3) regularly spend time participating here on this discussion forum

I might add a 3a)spending time over at scoutmastercg.com listening to podcasts and such.... and maybe a couple other scouting blogs too.

 

I guess really though, a good SM needs to bring with them a lot of outside leadership and woodsman knowledge

....and they need a lot of passion to consider ideas, do some thinking, reading, and research, etc... outside of the meetings...... they have to have a passion for the stuff that scouts do because sadly, they won't get the knowledge from the BSA's training.

[MattR]

@blw2: Yep. The training is fine as an introduction for someone that knows nothing about scouts. It would be much better if there was a follow on course related to the things you mention. Focusing on the patrol method for a whole day and how to transform a troop to using it would be great. That's what I was looking for and never found it. Philmont might have something useful but that's not practical.

[Eagle94-A1]

Back in the day, SM Fundamentals was the course to be trained and when I did it, it was completed over 4 weeks. In my council growing up, one Saturday was a mix a class and outdoor, hand on stuff, AS A PATROL. ( all caps are for emphasis here on out). Then we had a model troop meeting, AS A PATROL. We were expected to have a PATROL MEETING ("party line" calls were OK too) to discuss our duty roster and menus for the last part of the training: the camp out. The camp out was done by PATROLS.

 

Now did I learn anything new? Only the paperwork side of Scouting. I was a 19 year old ASM who had done the weeklong Brownsea 22 course, so how to run meetings, camping, and other skills were already ingrained in me. But it really helped those new Boy Scout leaders who were Cub Scout leaders with no Boy Scout experience, and reminded a few experienced former Cub Scout leaders that they need to switch gears.

 

While I think the training was better, it did require a commitment. I had to wait a year to do the training since it was only offered twice a year, and I couldn't fit it into my schedule. Even then, I had to miss a troop camp out to complete it.

[DuctTape]

Short, Simple, Effective. When it comes to training, only choose 2. In the attempt to "get everyone trained", the councils have chosen the first 2, subsequently sacrificing the 3rd.