Different Handbooks - Different Kids??

[Eamonn]

It has been said that the old Handbooks were unarguable better then the ones in use today. I very much doubt if anything posted in these forums could be termed unarguable?

It wasn't clear if all the Handbooks are worse now then they were then? Or if only the Scout Handbook has taken a turn for the worse.

I don't have a collection of Handbooks and I am not going to argue if one is better then the other. Still the Handbook is for the Scout to use.Like it or not the Scouts who use the book are being taught in a different way then I was and many of us were.

I suppose we could keep on putting out Handbooks that the Scouts don't like and wouldn't use. It might appease the old people but it wouldn't be of much use to those who it is aimed at and for.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

"I suppose we could keep on putting out Handbooks that the Scouts don't like and wouldn't use. It might appease the old people but it wouldn't be of much use to those who it is aimed at and for."

 

Using your logic, Halliday and Resnick should re-write "Fundamentals of Physics" to make it more appealing even if contains less information.

 

I haven't noticed that the Scouts like the current handbook. When they get a look at nearly any of the earlier handbooks I hear them say, "Hey, this is great. Why don't we have this book."

 

At every board of review that I sit on, I get to look at the Scout's handbook and 97.3% show very few signs of having been read.

 

Perhaps you should visit a used book store and find the last edition of the Handbook. Give it to your Scout and ask him to compare the two.

 

(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[Eamonn]

I do have the latest copy of the Scout Handbook. Why would I go to a used bookstore to buy one when I can buy a brand new copy for $7.95?

97.3%? Prove it!!

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

Are you sure that you aren't Bob White? You sound just like him.

 

Why would you want an old book? There are a wonderful reference for camping, games, activities, and other stuff. Lastly, so you can judge for yourself if the current handbook is a good as the old ones. Now why would you want to do that? So if you ever have the ear of someone involved in rewriting the handbook, you can say, "I think that that the current handbook is great" or "Let's put back in more of the information from the 1990 version."

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

I happen to be a life member of the "Older Handbooks are better" club. I'm not talking about the 1910 "Handbook for Boys" here, either. Even the Tenth Edition (1990) is better illustrated and has more information -- star charts, animal footprints, and much more. For Norman Rockwell illustrations, you have to go back to the Ninth Edition (1982). I have copies of both, and am in them all the time. I've shown them to my Scouts on numerous occasions, and almost all of them prefer the layout/design of the older books to the latest one.

 

Here's a head-scratcher from the 11th Edition. First Class Requirement 8d -- five signs of a heart attack, and explain the (steps) procedure for performing CPR. Go to the First Class section on p. 151, and you're told to go to pp. 294-298 for an explanation of CPR. On p. 298, there are two short paragraphs that define CPR, and tell you that it requires careful instruction, recommending that you get it. But, what about explaining the steps? Nowhere in the Handbook...the 11th edition, that is. However, if you're fortunate enough to have a copy of the Tenth Edition, it's right in there, on pp 408-413.

 

I know, I know, we don't want our lads reading about CPR and then considering themselves qualified to perform it, which may be why the steps were removed from the 11th Edition. But the requirement to explain the steps is still there, and as long as it is, I think the steps should be in the Handbook...

 

KS

[Laurie]

I've nothing to compare the current Boy Scout Handbook to, but I do know that my husband and I have supplemented it with field guides, the first aid merit badge book, and the Field Book. This is to fill in what we felt was missing as we read it, and when our son is not clear on something, we refer him to these other books. He does read the others far more than his handbook. That said, I still think the handbook is useful as is, but I can see where it might need improvements. The older boys in the troop prefer the older editions, by the way; they thought they were easier to use and more informative. Does anyone know why the handbook was changed?

 

Now, when it comes to Cubs, I happen to like the new edition over the last edition--1998 I believe. There is more information and they are more user friendly.

 

[Laurie]

Eamonn writes: "Like it or not the Scouts who use the book are being taught in a different way then I was and many of us were."

 

This particular aspect seems to get overlooked in other threads. When the boys are working with the troop leadership, they are learning by doing not by relying on the handbook alone. It would seem to me that the handbook is a listing of the requirements with some supplemental information and that the rest of the program comes from troop leadership. That is why when I first heard boys complaining about the book I was puzzled; I didn't see a problem with it. To me, it had plenty of info, but the leaders had even more, and that was far more fun that reading the book (and I love to read, but reading about building a campfire doesn't begin to compare to the actual building of it ) From my years as a Girl Scout, I can not tell you about the books, but I can vividly remember what I learned by doing. That is how I look at the handbook issue today.

[Fat Old Guy]

Laurie,

 

The handbook is not to teach, it is a reference. Just as it is very difficult to learn calculus just by reading the textbook, you still need an instructor to help you. The current handbook doesn't have much in the way of reference material.

 

As I suggested to Eamonn, go to a used book store and pick up a copy of any earlier handbook with the exception of the eighth edition which is easily identifiable by the lack of the word "Boy" in the title ("Scout Handbook" vs. "Boy Scout Handbook" or "Handbook for Boys."

 

 

[Laurie]

I think I'll do just that. I guess I just don't understand--without seeing the older issues--how this particular book is lacking as a reference (with the exception of what KS pointed out). We all seem to be saying the same thing--that the handbook doesn't teach--but we have different views of the importance of the handbook.

[Bob White]

A few things that KS did not mention is that had the 11th edition carried the CPR instructions as the 10th did, people would be complaining of it's inaccuracies. You have to remember that in July of 2001, nearly three years after the 11th edition was released, the Red Cross changed the CPR procedures. An easy and inexpensive way to keep the book current was to support the need for CPR knowledge and encoutage the scout to seek local, professional, current information.

 

I will also assume that no one has mentioned the size of the tenth edition. It was nearly 650 pages, one the largest scout handbooks ever produced. Many scouts and scouters gave feedback that the book was too big and that a smaller book was prefered. The handbook committee edited the current handbook down by more than 200 pages smaller than the previous edition, focusing it's content on the specific skills needed for Tenderfoot to First Class advancement, with the intention of merit badge books and the BSA Fieldbook to supplement the information as scouts advanced in skill level and rank after that.

 

This is not the last edition that will ever be produced. There will be many more to come, like with the uniform at no time will everyone be pleased, and bear in mind not all people want to be pleased. Without the abiltiy to complain some people would have no reason to communicate at all.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Without surprising anyone Bobo Blanco said, "with the intention of merit badge books and the BSA Fieldbook to supplement the information as scouts advanced in skill level and rank after that."

 

So you want Scouts to not just pay $8 for the Handbook but then pay $20 for the Fieldbook. I haven't seen the new Fieldbook but that last one didn't seem to fill too many gaps.

 

I'd like to know who these Scouts and Scouters were that didn't like the last edition of the Handbook. This subject has been brought up at RT, Scoutmaster Training, Univ. of Scouting, summer camp, and the rest room at O'Hare airport but I've yet to hear anyone say, "That last book was too big but the current one is great."

 

Bobo also blathered, "A few things that KS did not mention is that had the 11th edition carried the CPR instructions as the 10th did, people would be complaining of it's inaccuracies"

 

Considering that new handbooks are printed every year, it wouldn't be that difficult to make editorial changes to cover changes in CPR. You like to harp about first aid and CPR but the funny thing is that the CPR that I learned in 1972 would still save someone's life even though Red Cross changed it many times. There's another change coming down the pipeline soon too but that 1972 or 1991 version will still get the job done.

 

 

[VentureScoutNY]

Cutting 200 pages from the current handbook is no big achievement. It leaves Scouts at a disadvantage. I would prefer the information rather than the book telling me where else to go to find the info, that doesn't help when you are in the field. If you want to study deeper in the subject more power to you, but I'm talking about when you need info on the spot.

 

Most scouts own their 1 handbook and thats it. A mother is not going to go out and buy the fieldbook for her new scout that may not even stay in the Troop... So this new scout brings his handbook with him into the field with the lack of good info in it.

 

I will carry the extra pound in my pack when you think about how much that extra pound can turn knowledge into action.

[Bob White]

Its not a book designed to last seven years. It is a tool to get a scout started and then to First Class. There are to many skills in scouting to get them all in one book. To say that scouts only have one book may be a fact in the unit you are familiar with but it is not true in all,After a scout reaches First Class the handbook is kittle more than a record book and there is a much lighter pocket record book that makes more sense when camping.

 

No Boy Scout Handbook was ever meant for a boy to work out of for seven years. It's a great book to start off with and to refer back to when teaching the skills to others but a First Class scout should know the skils it contains.

 

The problem seems to be that you want one resource to contain everything there is to know about scouting skills, and that book has never existed.

 

Send your specific suggestions to national Attn: Joe Glasscock. Someday there will be a 12th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, perhaps you will see some of your suggestions in it.

[Eamonn]

It seems that I owe the cantankerous Fat Gent an apology. He wrote: "Perhaps you should visit a used book store and buy the last edition of the Handbook.."

I read it wrong. I thought the Handbook that we have now was/is the last one. I couldn't fathom why I had to go to a used Book Store to buy a book that I could pick up at the local Service Center. I really wasn't trying to be a smart Alec.

While I'm not employed in the area of education and by no means claim to have any expertise in that area. I have been led to believe that the trend in schools is toward more and more pictorial learning.

When I was a nipper back home, reading books was a very important part of becoming educated as well as an enjoyable past time. A past time that I still enjoy. As a family we made weekly if not twice weekly trips to the public library.

I spent a lot of time reading even getting into hot water at home for reading in bed with a flash-light.

Television was not 24/7. Computers were bigger then a house. Visual aids at school were limited to a chalk board and maps on the wall.

Our kids now take all the modern visual aids for granted.

I spent a long time trying to master Power Point and went out and bought a projector. I was feeling very proud of myself and admit to being a little smug only to have OJ inform me that they had been using it since first grade. He can make things happen on a computer in a few clicks, where as I spend hours trying to find a way of making it do what I want.

I wonder if Scouting For Boys were to hit the streets today if the youth would even look at it? How long will it be until the Scout Handbook is available as a DVD? And Scouts view the material they want or need that way? This may sound far fetched but take a look at the way we train our adults. A great deal of the material is on VHS tape. The last District Training material I received was on DVD. I presented part of it to our round table commissioners on my lap top.

I love looking at the old books and old Scouting stuff and I am sure that some Scouts are as interested as I am, but when it comes down to using it as a tool I feel that just as many would be happy to use it in the manner that they are most comfortable with.

I would also hope that we all agree that no material in whatever form will ever replace good leadership and strong presentation skills.

Eamonn.

[Fat Old Guy]

"I have been led to believe that the trend in schools is toward more and more pictorial learning."

 

I don't know if they are actually learning anything. In helping my son and his buddies with homework over the past seven years, I've noticed that they aren't being taught to skim material to find answers. If it isn't in a pull quote in their book, in a nice blue box, they can't find it.

 

The problem is that a picture really isn't worth a thousand words. Look how much of a novel is lost when they make a movie. Watch a show on the History Channel and no matter how interesting it is, they only scrape the surface of a topic. You can get much more information by reading for an hour although it will be less entertaining.

 

We have two more questions to answer. Are Scouts reading the current handbook? I'm not seeing that. The second one is should we be lowering the program standards or trying to bring the Scouts up to a higher level?

 

BTW, I've seen way too many of the "wonderful" Powerpoint presentations designed by jr. high and high school students. Far too many bells and whistles and not enough information. Most of the time, they'd be better off with posterboard and crayons.

 

You might want to go to a used book store to get the latest edition of the Handbook because I've found brand handbooks for $3 each. Buy them for the poor kids in your troop.