Looking for advice

[acco40]

First, our troop is expanding. We recently received twelve new boys at the end of February. We will be receiving 6-7 more in two weeks. Before the recent influx, we had thirteen boys (2 with one year, six with two and five with three years of experience respectively. The youngest of the five older boys (13), a Life Scout, has served very well as SPL for the past year (two six-month terms).

 

The three oldest boys in the troop (15, 15 , & 14) just earned the Star rank. They are not currently patrol leaders or the assistant patrol leader (nor have they been). When giving them their SM conference and asking them their goals, all gave individual goals (advance in rank, earn more MBs, get Eagle, etc.). When I asked about leadership positions, all said no thanks, not interested and then gave a litany of excuses, homework, busy, sports, etc. When asked if they feel they have an obligation to the troop and how their actions show how they are living by the Scout Oath and Law their responses were on the line of "I'll be nice to the new kids."

 

Now I realize I can't force them to take up leadership positions but I get really frosted when the boys have no desire to "step up", their parents don't want them to step up and then they (the parents) are the first ones to complain about the content of the meetings, etc. In the past, the SPL has appointed these individuals with "leadership" positions such as historian, librarian, quartermaster, etc. and even though I have reviewed with them particular job descriptions and tasks, none are carried out.

 

My question, do you think I'd be over stepping my bounds as SM to either have a heart to heart talk with their parents or have a talk with the new SPL about appointing someone else to the leadership positions these boys currently hold?(This message has been edited by acco40)

[altabill]

We have had the same problem...Scouts volunteering for leadership positions and then not fulfilling their responsibilities. Even with reminders from the SPL and counseling from the SM, they still do not do their jobs.

 

One thing our boys we have done is determine a heirarchy of leadership positions. Our PLC determined that some leadership positions were more critical than others. They decided that they would fill the SPL, ASPL, Scribe, Quartermaster, Librarian, and Chaplain's Aide first (in that order). Once these positions were filled, they address the other positions.

 

Some positions don't get filled. However, we don't see that being any different than filling the position with a boy who does nothing.

 

You're right when you say that you can't force these boys to take leadership positions. However, these boys probably want to advance. Their parents probably also want them to advance. As higher ranking Scouts, they need leadership to advance. Letting them, and their parents, know that advancement requires "fulfilled" leadership may spur these boys into taking action.

 

The boys that you have in leadership doing nothing need to be reminded that their rank advancement depends in part on leadership. Our SPL and SM get together and discuss those in leadership. Should a Scout not be fulfilling his responsibilities, he is reminded/counseled about his role. Should he continue to be lax, he will not receive leadership credit for his time in office. Should he start working, he gets partial credit.

 

We have not pulled a Scout from a leadership role...yet. It has been talked though. Personally, I don't think you would be out of line in replacing a "non performing" leader. However, he needs to know that he is not performing and given the chance to change or risk being replaced.

[Bob White]

When they said they wanted to advance in rank but did not want a position of responsibility, did they say anything when you told them that in order to advance they had to serve?

 

If they chose not to serve then thats their choice. A boy doesn't have to advance to be a scout. You have a program responsibility to direct a scout to 1st Class. But Star Life and Eagle are designed for the Scout to determine on his own. Focus on training Junior Leaders.

[ozemu]

What would make the leadership positions in your troop more attractive to otherwise enthusiastic Scouts?

 

Is there something missing from the way you handle the incumbents that is not attractive to the others. I am definately not saying that you are being a bad SM but rather that I have learned and put into practice many things that make the role of PL etc sought after and respected in our Troop.

 

Having said that the newest additions in our Troop who have arrived as older Scouts (about 4 Scouts) are evenly split on wanting to have a leadership role and not. The more experienced older Scouts all seem to be looking forward to the opportunity.

 

Is it that they forsee the old team being broken up and that they do not want that? Is there some way that you could cater for them? (Venture patrols etc).

 

Could you get boy leaders within and outside the Troop to motivate them?

 

acco40 I am probably off the mark and am just trying to suggest of ways to bring them round without putting the guilts on them. Maybe a kick in the nether region is what is needed.

 

[acco40]

Thanks for the advice guys. I think two factors come into play. One, "what is the minimum I need to do to advance" attitude by the boys wrt leadership positions. Two, they are under parental pressure to NOT take leadership positions because it would mean one extra meeting a month, "work" to be done outside of the acutal "1 hour a week" allotment, etc. One of the boys had an interest in beciming a PL until he talked it over with mom and dad.

 

Ozemu, I don't think it is a case of breaking up a group of any sort but I do agree that I could probably do more to make leadership have more perks if you will to attract the boys.

[KA6BSA]

Boy Scouts is different from Cubs in that the boys are the leaders of the troop. If you have no boy leaders then there is a major disconnect somewhere. In our troop the boys are eager to be leaders once they figure out what it feels like. Today most boys don't get to be a leader at home, and the don't get to be a leader at school (unless they are very popular and get elected to one of the few student officer positions) and they don't get to be a leader in sports because even if they are a star the coach is always yelling the orders. So most boys lack the experience to know what it really feels like to have leadership power and responsibility. So instead they are looking at leadership as just a burden on their time and energy. They need to start seeing it as an opportunity to learn skills they can't get anywhere else. And the parents are very short sighted, not realizing that the leader training BSA gives will last a lifetime and give their boys a real headstart in the competition for advancement in the real world, not just in Scouts.

 

It is very unfortunate that you are in the position of holding their feet to the fire on doing simple jobs like librarian and historian simply to justify the requirements for rank advancement. These should be the jobs that are stepping stones to the honor and duty of being PL and SPL... a link in the vital chain of command. In our Patrol Leader Council the boys are having fun and getting a feeling they get nowhere else doing the planning and making the decisions that channel the energy of the troop. And they just LOVE how at the PLC they vote on the troop's issues and the adults can't! Of course the adults have the Troop Committee but that is another story. Leadership is leadership and the BSA kind is the real thing. Adults may pay thousands of dollars to get leadership training later in life to make up for the deficiencies they had from their youth. Without some boys as role models as leaders you the SM need to turn the attitudes around for them to understand how valuable leadership experience is. Otherwise, without boy leaders you really don't have a troop... just a bunch of older Cub Scouts.(This message has been edited by KA6BSA)

[Fat Old Guy]

"Work! Wadda ya mean work!"

 

I've had conversations with Scouts that go something like this.

 

What sort of leadership position do you want to have?

 

I don't want one.

 

Why wouldn't you want to be a leader?

 

Too much work.

 

Earlier you told me that you didn't like what was happening at meetings?

 

Yeah?

 

If you were in a leadership position you'd be in a position to effect changes.

 

Huh? (public schools)

 

If you were a Patrol Leader or Senior Patrol Leader you'd have a say in what happens.

 

Nah. Don't wanna do it.

 

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

And, here's the sequel to the story. The same unmotivated Scouts and apologist parents you're looking at today will be banging on your door at 17, in a panic because they realize they've got a year or less to earn Eagle before they age-out. They've seen the college applications, which ask for community-related activities, years of involvement, and yes, LEADERSHIP POSITIONS HELD. They're also looking for scholarship $$ from organizations that give money to kids who participated in civil activities, have performed significant volunteer hours, served in a leadership role in an organization, or other qualifying activity that is interwoven in Scouting -- when one is dedicated, active, and seeks opportunities and challenges. And, they also see the applications ask for letters of recommendation from adults outside the family...and they're thinking of you.

 

Do we bend over backwards to help? Tempting, because we're living the Oath/Law, even if they didn't. It would have been a heckuva lot easier and more beneficial for all concerned if they "got religion" on your timetable instead of theirs, but there's nothing you can do about it after the fact...

 

KS

[Shell in WA- USA]

I don't think you're overstepping. If they aren't doin the job give it to someone else. If they aren't doing the job, let them know, they won't get the "credit." But you should work witht eh SPL also, afterall, he's boss!

 

Let me tell you what we do in our troop and maybe it will help you. We just had a major change in our Adult leadership. Before our new group, the adults did not do a "boy led" troop. therefore, leadership roles other than PL and SPL were not filled. So we are basically trying to get it back to where it should be, leadership roles being a part of it.

 

I've been working with the new SM (I'm the new AC) into introducing these leadership roles at a slow pace. First I talked with each of the adult Leadership and STRONGLY encouraged them to Mentor their counterpart. (ie, SM(A - Adult) with SPL(B-Boy), AC(A) with Sect(B), Equipment Chair(A) with Quartermaster(B), etc)

 

Then we talked about all the leadership roles available in the troop, what "counts," what's involved, etc. Explained that Adult Counterpart would be a mentor for them, and that they weren't alone. But also if every effort wasn't made to fill the position, they wouldn't get the "Credit" for it and could be replaced.

 

Then at a meeting the SPL presented the list of possibles to the troop and held an election. At first we didn't fill ALL the roles, but some were filled. and 1 and a half years later, our last election last month, all positions are filled with scout members including the Chaplain's Aide!

 

 

[evmori]

acco,

If they don't want leadership positions it's really up to them, not you. You provide the opportunity but they must take advantage of it.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dancinfox]

Just recently my ASM and I were talking. He told me that the scout meetings and outings were boring and we should step in and do the program for them. I told him that the leadership have all the tools i.e.(JLT, TLT, program materials, and my counsel at all PLC meetings, but they choose not to plan). I have held SM conferences with the leadership to no avail and it seemed that they have not consequences. If they don't do their homework, their parents take away something. If their bad in school, they get a suspension. I thought about it for a few days, thinking that maybe I should step down as Scoutmaster and let my ASM take over. The leadership had a PLC planned for a hour before the meeting, so I asked the SPL to have all the troop present at that meeting. As the meeting began, I took the floor and made the announcement that if they were not going to take ownership of their troop and plan longer than one or two meetings ahead, then I was going to resign. The look on their faces and their parents faces made me smile. I gave them a consequence in their minds they did not want. A week later we had a planning conference at my house that lasted for four hours in which they planned meetings, outings and themes for six months. They were always complaining about outings and meetings, but would not step up to the plate to make changes. Now they are.

Dancin