Trans Scouting (Use other thread for new policy)

[Ankylus]

That is a red herring, a classic diversionary tactic. The fact remains that the child is known to be a "trans boy", whether by DNA test or admission. 

[Stosh]

Known to whom? and by whose definition?  One can make up whatever fantasy they wish in this world of ours, create whatever wonderful state of being might be possible, but unfortunately the reality of the situation stays the same.  I can claim the white wall in my kitchen is black from dawn 'til dusk, but everyone else thinks it's white.  Now, depending on my resoluteness in the matter and length of time, I can insist on it being black, eventually people will not think the wall black, but may conclude something about the state of my mind. For 66 years now I have since I was a small child known what white looks like and what black looks like, and what a male is and what a female is.  Now there's something to be said about the color grey, during all that time, but for the most part male has been male and female is female and if someone varied from such concepts, it wasn't male and female that became the issue, but given the length of time and the resolute nature of one's insistence, one may eventually conclude that something about a person's state of mind is a bit amiss and that is always a part of real reality.

 

If that logic seems unacceptable to another, then any reality of a trans sexual will be viewed the same same to others.  Sure there are those that believe in unicorns and leprechauns, but it doesn't make either of them reality.

 

There are a lot of things I wish I could wish into existence, but it would seem that reality has always kept my wishing in check.

[Ankylus]

Known to whom? and by whose definition? 

 

Well, let's think critically here. Without more, it had to be known by someone or the entire issue would never have come up. It was clearly known to Pack leadership, or the entire issue would never have arisen. So, by those people, and by their definition. Which, if you read the article, was never challenged by the mother.

 

And if you actually read the article, it says right in it that the child's status was known:

 

"Kristie Maldonado said she was stunned because her son had been a member of Cub Scout Pack 87 in Secaucus for about a month and his transgender status had not been a secret. But some parents complained, an official from the Northern New Jersey Council of Boy Scouts told her — even though her son had been living as a boy for more than a year and was accepted as a boy at school, she said."

 

So the article itself establishes that the child's status was commonly known.

 

Also, from a biological standpoint, the definitions of male and female are quite well established. I don't understand hat the rest of your screed was about.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ankylus

[NJCubScouter]

Ankylus and Stosh, it seems pretty clear to me that you agree on this subject, so I don't understand what you are arguing about.

[pchadbo]

WOW, I don't know what to say other thatn this is a very long, at times heated, and passionate discussion that has nothing to do with 99.7% more or less of our Scouts. . .why do we let the extreme minority dictate to the majority?

 

Just a question for thought

[David CO]

People who self-identify as transgender are a very small minority, but those who support them are not.  The number of people who support these views are too large to ignore.

 

I don't see it as the minority dictating to the majority.  I see it as half the country trying to impose their beliefs on the other half.

 

I don't care what they believe.  I only object to them trying to use the strong arm of government to compel my family to accept and act on their strange, dangerous, and disturbing beliefs. 

 

I don't think the two halves of this country will ever see eye to eye.  We need to have a divided and polarized country.  We need to remain separate. It is the only way we can get along.

Edited January 12, 2017 by David CO

[Stosh]

Ankylus and Stosh, it seems pretty clear to me that you agree on this subject, so I don't understand what you are arguing about.

Neither do I. 

[Stosh]

People who self-identify as transgender are a very small minority, but those who support them are not.  The number of people who support these views are too large to ignore.

 

I don't see it as the minority dictating to the majority.  I see it as half the country trying to impose their beliefs on the other half.

 

I don't care what they believe.  I only object to them trying to use the strong arm of government to compel my family to accept and act on their strange, dangerous, and disturbing beliefs. 

 

I don't think the two halves of this country will ever see eye to eye.  We need to have a divided and polarized country.  We need to remain separate. It is the only way we can get along.

 

But if somehow the populace can convince everyone this is not a moral issue, nor scientific, nor religious, nor psychological, nor  (fill in the blank) but a political issue, then they seem to feel they have traction.  What they do, however, ignore the moral, scientific, religious, psychological, etc. to make their definition sound politically plausible.

 

What that means for the future, all YPT, co-ed rules, sexual realities, etc. established by anyone other than this elitist group, are now null and void.  That's how one negates the power of one's enemies.  I can be anything I want to be and YOU have to recognize it or you are criminalized in the process.  This is how minority extremism works.

[NJCubScouter]

The BSA was going along just fine with no policy on this at all, before the bulls-in-the-china-shop at National decided they had to step in with some half-baked "policy" that isn't even really a policy.  There probably were, and are, some transgender males (meaning, their birth certificates say they are female) in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts already.  It is the BSA that has made this an issue, for no good reason that I can see. 

[David CO]

The BSA was going along just fine with no policy on this at all, before the bulls-in-the-china-shop at National decided they had to step in with some half-baked "policy" that isn't even really a policy.  There probably were, and are, some transgender males (meaning, their birth certificates say they are female) in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts already.  It is the BSA that has made this an issue, for no good reason that I can see. 

 

BSA has always had a policy.  Only boys can be Cub Scouts.

[Stosh]

BSA being a BOY Scout program is sufficient cause to have a good reason for it's all-boy policies in the programs, especially those called BOY Scouts.  To me that's reason enough.

[gumbymaster]

Normally I try not to throw gasoline onto the campfire but for some reason I think I'd like to voice in here.

 

Also understand that I am not trying to project my opinion of what to do here, because I honestly haven't fully made up my mind on the subject.

 

100 years ago when the boy scouts were founded, no one would have thought that the definition of boy was in doubt.  Everyone knew what a boy was and that was that.

 

For most people in our program, I think we fairly clearly mean genetically a boy (X&Y chromosome, I deliberately do not use biologically, for reasons I'll get to later).

 

The Society around us, for better or worse, worked to change the definition of boy.  The society definition of a boy has become more hazy as both social activists and medical practitioners have expanded that definition to those that identify as a boy.

 

Separate definitions to those, but usually less relevant to youth ages are those who may be legally male or present (i.e. post-surgery) as male (regardless of birth genetics).

 

Clearly this subject makes many uncomfortable, and probably with good reason.  We like doing the right thing, but what is right is no longer quite so clear cut.

 

Some recently published studies have shown that there is a significant number of trans-gendered youth whom have clearly established gender identities by as young as age three with fewer than 10 percent reverting back to identify as their genetic gender by adulthood.  There is some very real science to indicate that this gender identity is truly biologic (this why I do not use the term biologically male, etc.) in the chemistry of their brain and the hormones their body produces.  I distinguish this from those who psychologically identify as their non-genetic gender - but that too doesn't necessarily mean it is a "choice" on the part of the individual.

http://www.healthofchildren.com/G-H/Gender-Identity.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/

 

We in the BSA really just shouldn't think that it is safe for us to say we are Boy scouts, and only Boys are allowed to join (if that is in fact our intent).  While it is rare for youth to undergo a genetic reassignment surgery, it is not unheard of, particularly in cases of intersex/hermaphrodite individuals. 

 

For Passports and some state birth certificates or drivers licenses, proof of a surgical reassignment is no longer required, it is sufficient to demonstrate "appropriate clinical treatment".  Other states don't let the change be officially recorded even after a reassignment surgery.

http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/article/trans-identity-document-faq

 

My only real point is that if the BSA is only for genetically male youth, then our rules and/or charter should probably be changed to reflect that, otherwise we are far more likely to be put into the society definition of gender - which may not even be that individual's legal much less genetic gender status.

 

This also creates an issue with potential leadership.  While a CO can select their own leadership; would a trans-gender leader be excluded?  Probably not since we accept both male and female leaders.

 

And further, what about a genetic male who identifies as a female (girl) wanting to join as a youth, since we don't allow girls either?

 

I'd say we were on a slippery slope, but the reality is that we're already rolling down the hill at full speed, the only real question will be how broken we are when we finally reach the bottom.

[David CO]

How long do you think it will be before people start to identify as bi-gender, and demand to join both BSA and GSA?

 

Would a so-called transgender adult leader be excluded from my unit?  Yes.  If this became a problem, we would probably drop scouting altogether.

 

These problems aren't unique to scouting.  Most service clubs have seen a huge drop in membership over the past decade.  It is simply getting to be too difficult to have a club anymore.

Edited January 13, 2017 by David CO

[cyclops]

These problems aren't unique to scouting.  Most service clubs have seen a huge drop in membership over the past decade.  It is simply getting to be too difficult to have a club anymore.

The transgender leader in ours is just fine. I don't see the connection between this issue and your claim that "Most service clubs have seen a huge drop in membership over the past decade."

Which clubs? Why the drop in membership? How is this related to transgender issues?

[Ankylus]

Ankylus and Stosh, it seems pretty clear to me that you agree on this subject, so I don't understand what you are arguing about.

 

Hmmm....well, I'm not sure we are.