Trans Scouting (Use other thread for new policy)

[Stosh]

He doesn't want to be King of the World. He wants to be a Cub Scout.

 

I don't know of anyone in this world that always gets what they want.  It's how we deal with life makes us what we really are, not what we want to be.

[David CO]

Stosh, I don't think you understand what the issue is here. The question is not whether he is heterosexual or not. The question is whether he should be treated as a boy or as a girl.

 

Exactly right.  She is a girl.  That is the issue.

Edited December 29, 2016 by David CO

[NJCubScouter]

Not really related, but remember when Clinton, the Bill, said "It's the economy, stupid." Again, the BSA is pulled off its message. Well, I guess we don't know what its message is so any incident will do just that.

 

Perhaps not really related to the prior discussions, but I think this is an important point.  The BSA recently spent about 15 years being defined (in the mind of most of the public) by the issue of who can stay in and who gets kicked out.  I don't think the BSA benefited from that.  Is National sending us back there again?

 

And having nothing at all to do with anything, why do the "test cases" all seem to come from New Jersey?

[Stosh]

Exactly right.  She is a girl.  That is the issue.

 

And Cub Scouts is by policy a boy's organization.  That's my point.  Wishing for something that is never going to happen is like wishing to be King of the World.  Now, if Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are no longer going to exist as an organization for young males, then the policy changes and the organization is no longer Boy Scout and/or Cub Scouts as has been the case for 100+ years.  That is the point.  BSA can be anything it wishes and deems itself to be.  But calling oneself Boy Scouts of America when the membership has non-boys is a bit of an oxymoron.

 

Sure, we can still call it Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, but a poppy that looks like a rose isn't a rose.  Only someone who wishes it to be by some yet undefined definition will it be a reality of their own creation.

.

Perhaps not really related to the prior discussions, but I think this is an important point.  The BSA recently spent about 15 years being defined (in the mind of most of the public) by the issue of who can stay in and who gets kicked out.  I don't think the BSA benefited from that.  Is National sending us back there again?

 

And having nothing at all to do with anything, why do the "test cases" all seem to come from New Jersey?

 

Isn't this the same as dumping all over the American Kennel Club for not allowing Schnoodles and Labradoodles into their kennel club?  After all, the guy that shows up with a Grey Wolf or a Red Fox isn't allowed either.  When the rules are removed, I am sure everyone will be extremely happy with the anarchy that results.

 

If the scouting program in America wanted to be co-ed they would have been the American Scouts like other co-ed programs in today's world.  But BP saw something, as did Lady Powell when they organized two different programs. 

 

We can regale ourselves with the benefits of all male, all female, and co-ed until the cows come home.

 

Our society will always try to established norms by simply changing them to whatever they want.  It's the entitlement culture we live in.  If I want my daughter in Boy Scouts, she's entitled to it, If I want to be married to a man and I'm a man, I'm entitled to it. and the litany goes on ad nauseum and when the dust settles everyone's entitled to everything because there is no definitions, no rules, no norms, no culture and no society any longer. 

 

Every empire that ever existed has taken this road.  It comes as no surprise that this is what we have chosen as the course we are due to take.  Insist on getting a 25% raise every year from your company and the day will soon come when the company ceases to exist.  Insist on changing the rules of how things run, they will eventually cease to run.  It think this is where the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes from.

[NJCubScouter]

Yes Stosh, we know, if we let this young person be a Cub Scout, all of Western Civilization will come crashing down around us. Or has it crashed already? Often when I read your writing, the breadth of the calamity that has already befallen us is so overwhelming that I can't tell what's still standing. It's amazing that we're still walking around.

 

As for "coed Scouting", meaning Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, I have expressed my opinion in several past threads, that it would be best if boys are served by Cub and Boy Scouting and girls by Girl Scouting. This kid from Secaucus NJ is not an exception. The issue he presents is who we consider to be a "boy". As I have said, the GSUSA's "case by case basis" policy seems pretty good.

 

If I want to be married to a man and I'm a man, I'm entitled to it.

Yes, you are. As well you should be.

Edited December 29, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[David CO]

LGBTQ.  The T stands for transgender.  If liberals insist on lumping these things together in one acronym, they really shouldn't complain when we conservatives see them all as one issue.

[Stosh]

I'm sure that our civilization may last a bit longer, but I'm thinking Boy Scouts will surely collapse under it's bureaucracy long before that.

 

It's not really an issue of entitlement because, yes, you are entitled to do what you wish, but then I reserve the right to do whatever I wish and that in and of itself will alienate peoples of a culture.  Civilization is based on norms, both moral and practical that everyone abides by in order to bring people together, not separate them   People by nature congregate with like-minded ideals and when they don't, the society separates into it's own little niches.

 

50 years ago, we spent a lot of time fighting that separation and now there are those that wish to have safe spaces to get away from others who are not like minded.  50 years all for naught.

 

The world would be a lot different if every individual truly believed they were entitled to do whatever they wanted to do, and that's always an option, but the fragmented world they live in will do nothing more than entitle them to a world separated from others.  That's their choice and I will support their decision.  But it comes with a cost.  The others are genuinely entitled as well and they simply either force these people out or they move away from them.  The Puritans did it, the Mormons did it.  The Amish do it.  The Muslims moving into new territories do it.  

 

The Americas used to be a "melting pot" where all the separate groups melted together in a common cause.  Now the point to be made is how welcoming are we as a society to accommodate the demanding few that don't want to melt, but have their own rules that others have to accommodate?

 

I would see nothing wrong with a group deciding to be Coed Scouts on their own.  Buy the books at the Scout office, recruit leaders, organize and run the program.  Not a problem.  I do it all the time.  The church I attend has me working with the youth.  They are, nor will they anytime soon be a BSA chartering organization, but that doesn't mean I don't run the youth program using the BSA dynamics...which in this case is a co-ed organization.  They don't get the branding of an Eagle rank, but they can get the benefits of the program none the less.  Yes, it's all under the radar, but the kids have a great time.  This is why it's not a media circus when my kids meet.  An 8 year old girl wants to join Cub Scouts, she can't, but if says "she identifies as a boy" then she's trying to create a loophole in the armor and is using the media as her army to get her way.  Now does a girl who identifies as a gay male qualify for any and all programs?

 

Play the games, whip up the crowds and P. T. Barmum will sell you a ticket.

 

So the parents of the 8 year old does as I do, starts their own little den for their daughter.  The problem lies in the fact that in order to have a den one needs other people and with numbers numbering in the <1% of the population the girl may be in college before she gets her friends onboard. So one needs a bit of "persuasion" (i.e. force) to compel others to go along with it.  That will convince a lot of people to comply with what the few want while taking away the entitlement of others.  It is obvious at this point that separation and polarization is inevitable.

 

Yes there are ways of going about this in a civilized manner.  It's just that force and intimidation do not work well when building congenial relationships.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/29/cub-scouts-embroiled-in-transgender-controversy.html

 

Just out from Foxnews for all those who wish to participate in the media frenzy.

[sst3rd]

No.

[tyke]

All this talk of 8 year olds having surgery is nonsense. The kids have to go through lots of phycological assessment and live for a few years as there new gender before evening going on hormone thearpy let alone surgery. And this would usually happen when the kid is over 16, as the most that is usually done before then is hormones that delay puberty so the kid and family have more time. Reading some of the comments above saddens me as it's so easy for some people to dismiss as a phase or just a tom boy, it's no wonder trans people have a very high rate of suicide

[David CO]

There is no such thing as trans people.  It is a hoax.

 

To subject a prepubescent child to hormone therapy to suppress their natural development is nothing less than medical quackery and child abuse.

[David CO]

We live in a time in which wearing unisex clothing is not only acceptable, it is largely the norm.  The same is also often true of hair styles.  Many boys wear long hair and many girls wear short hair.

 

As a teacher, I have occasionally had some difficulty guessing the gender of a new student, once or twice with embarrassing results.

 

My point is that it not necessary anymore for a kid to stand out.  If they do, it is because they want to stand out.  

[tyke]

There is no such thing as trans people.  It is a hoax.

 

To subject a prepubescent child to hormone therapy to suppress their natural development is nothing less than medical quackery and child abuse.

 

So you believe a whole load of people to be a hoax, based on what ? Your deep knowledge of the subject from years or study or did some bloke tell you down the pub so it mus be true.

[David CO]

So you believe a whole load of people to be a hoax, based on what ? Your deep knowledge of the subject from years or study or did some bloke tell you down the pub so it mus be true.

 

I don't smoke or drink alcohol. Consequently, I don't like to frequent pubs. Please don't infer that I do.

 

My degrees are in Health Education.  I teach middle school Science and Health.  I actually do have years of study in Anatomy and Physiology, as well as Human Sexuality and Adolescent Development.  

 

It is a frequent tactic of the left to infer that conservatives are all a bunch of uneducated, beer swilling, NASCAR loving yokels who get their all information and develop all their opinions from frequenting pubs and watching Fox News.

[tyke]

A 'bloke down the pub'is a phrase it doesn't literally mean you spoke to bloke in a pub (you can go to pubs and not drink or smoke). If you have this extensive knowledge you could share the papers that state that trans is a hoax, something in pubmed would be nice