Trans Scouting (Use other thread for new policy)

[blw2]

I'll only respond to that by saying that

when we have an 8 year old that is even considering "desired gender"

or really anything to do with sexual desire

well, then we've got bigger societal problems.

[The Latin Scot]

I am surrounded by skilled and professional psychiatrists both at work and in my family. Every one of them agrees that in most cases, it really is just a matter of them being "tomboys" or even just feminine males that our society now thinks are "trans" or whatever. I am afraid, tyke, that the more you educate yourself on this matter, as the doctors and professionals I am close to have, you will learn that usually they absolutely DO NOT know much about gender and gender roles yet. I have taught a few "trans" children in my life, and what they are going through is a confusion that can either be assisted and consoled with professional help and good parenting, or compounded by false labels and attempts to make them fit in to these new societal "norms." Gender roles are often not fully understood until late adolescence, even early adulthood. No 8-year-old really grasps the concept. And why are these parents so hasty to give the child what they want? I hate hearing how the child was "sad" when one gender but then "happy" in another. Happiness is a choice, not a condition dependent on gender. If the child is depressed at this age, their gender should not be labelled as the "problem."

 

Do not accuse others of ignorance merely because their opinions differ from yours. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by The Latin Scot

[qwazse]

An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself

Not speaking for @@blw2 ... however, I've crossed paths with a wide spectrum of such adults and youth. Moreover, their numbers seem to be burgeoning. And many of them do vacillate between their biological sex and the opposite (or novel alternative). The vision of any 8 year old's counter-biological desire (or teen's "self discovery") being fixed is it's own stereotype.

 

@@NJCubScouter, this field in particular is finding unknowns faster than resolutions. So, we have policy wonks choosing their experts, and the very choice is laden with bias.

[cyclops]

Tyke, Joe would be welcome here too. Looks like BSA hasn't noticed what happened in NC. If they really want to be true to some ill-defined principle, they need to require a karyotype for all members who might be disqualified because of gender.

For Cubscouting in particular, it seems that being a woman is just fine after the age of 18 and in a leadership/role model capacity. But NOT if age 8? Right.

Yes, as a society and with the help of technology we're finding previously unknown situations faster than some people can accept. But BSA is in a position of resistance to one more 'local option' chink in their 'tradition'. Like I said, Joe (or someone like Joe) will be welcome here.

But I suppose BSA can stand at the bathroom door with Sheriff Arpaio and demand the long-form birth certificate...if that's really what they want.

 

Edited to add: Quote from Effie Delimarkos, the communications director for the Boy Scouts of America, "Gender identity isn’t related to sexual orientation."

ROTFLMAO!

Edited December 28, 2016 by cyclops

[Stosh]

Now that society has opened up Pandora's box, it means there are no longer any rules and it's basically a free-for-all.  I think another way of describing it might be anarchy. 

 

Society is by definition a set of rules everyone agrees on the facilitate relationships between the members of that society.  Once those rules are removed, then all bets are off the table.  I know anarchy might be a bit heavy handed definition, but...

 

a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority: "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"

 

synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, ... more

antonyms: government, order

 

With no rules/definitions/laws, there is no society.

[blw2]

An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself

I was thinking about this over lunch, so I'll have to add to what was going to be my only comment to this....

At 8, a kid might know if they like pink clothes, or if they lean towards blue.   They probably know if they want sequins or lace on their clothes, or not.

But that's not really having anything sexual orientation is it?

[qwazse]

I was thinking about this over lunch, so I'll have to add to what was going to be my only comment to this....

At 8, a kid might know if they like pink clothes, or if they lean towards blue.   They probably know if they want sequins or lace on their clothes, or not.

But that's not really having anything sexual orientation is it?

The truth? We don't know what leads to an identification or orientation under the premise of a permissive sexual ethic.

If your anatomy does not constrain your future sexual expression, color or pattern preferences may be a step along the cascade towards a long term (possibly life-long) identification.

[Eagledad]

Tyke, Joe would be welcome here too. Looks like BSA hasn't noticed what happened in NC. If they really want to be true to some ill-defined principle, they need to require a karyotype for all members who might be disqualified because of gender.

 

ROTFLMAO!

It didn't take long for a mature dialogue of thoughts to get dragged down into the mud of judgemental condescending diatribe. 

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

Now that society has opened up Pandora's box, it means there are no longer any rules and it's basically a free-for-all.  I think another way of describing it might be anarchy. 

 

Society is by definition a set of rules everyone agrees on the facilitate relationships between the members of that society.  Once those rules are removed, then all bets are off the table.  I know anarchy might be a bit heavy handed definition, but...

 

a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority: "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"

 

synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, ... more

antonyms: government, order

 

With no rules/definitions/laws, there is no society.

Stosh, what "rule" is being broken when someone concludes that they are the "wrong" gender?

 

Aside from that, the fact is that there have been many "rules" that have been changed over the years.

 

This discussion sounds like a repeat of the hundreds of discussions of the "gay issue" over the years. How many times did I read statements in this forum saying that if we change this one rule, there will be no rules left. Well, the change was made and there are still rules for other things. The world did not end and the BSA is still here. We are capable of evaluating one rule at a time, and if necessary, changing it.

 

And that assumes that the BSA even has a policy on this. The article quoted in this thread does not convince me that there really is a policy, just a hastily thrown-together idea that if the issue comes up in a particular unit, they're going to go by the birth certificate.

[NJCubScouter]

Qwasze (and others), do you think this kid is just making up the idea that he is "really" a boy? Do you think he is lying?

 

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would make something like that up, or even mention it to anyone unless they were absolutely sure it was true. This child certainly has not made his life any easier. In at least some respects, it would have been easier to continue to live his life as a girl. It would have been easier for his parents as well.

 

I'm not ready to conclude that this kid is lying or making things up. And that being the case, I would not throw him out of a Cub Scout pack. To paraphrase the GSUSA policy, if he is living as a boy, and is accepted and recognized in the family, school and community as a boy, I think we can accept him as a boy as well.

Edited December 28, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[Eagledad]

I'm not ready to conclude that this kid is lying or making things up. And that being the case, I would not throw him out of a Cub Scout pack. To paraphrase the GSUSA policy, if he is living as a boy, and is accepted and recognized in the family, school and community as a boy, I think we can accept him as a boy as well.

From a Christian perspective, God gave us ethical and moral guidelines so we as a community would guide (guard) the youth toward a consistent behavior acceptable by God. Now, I'm not professing that you accept a Christian's guide to acceptable behavior, but I am saying that when the community or culture lack some kind of  general guideline to keep fleeting youth fed emotions in check, those youth will tend to look for a sanctuary to encourage growth of those emotions. It's one thing to stand back and let the community steer a child into the dark unknown, it is quite another to contribute to that act by accepting their present state of mind as acceptable. Love is not giving into fickle delusions of emotional acceptance, but protecting the weak from self-serving deception. 

 

Barry

[cyclops]

If BSA wants to be 'true' to their so-called membership 'standards', then membership for the teenage boy who has gone the distance with complete reassignment must be supported by BSA no matter what the present physical reality is. The birth certificate will identify her as male and no matter what the physical status actually IS, BSA must live up to their stated 'standard'.

And she will also be welcome in this unit.

Technology does indeed make for interesting times. And those who are uncomfortable with it need to learn to live with it because 'it' is not going to stop. Even better, the changes brought by technology are accelerating.

My advice: enjoy the ride.

 

Edit to add: in response to the following post, this unit has some trans adults in leadership positions. They are also prominent in local community, government...and most people have no clue or else just don't worry about it. It's just not that big a deal...unless you make it one. And that's what BSA seems to be trying to do.

Edited December 28, 2016 by cyclops

[Beavah]

An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself

 

Yah, hmmm... 

 

Yah, sure, I know trans adults.  Have worked with a lot of kids over da years who struggled with various things; Mrs. Beavah has worked with a lot more and in a professional role.  

 

I reckon an 8 year old often enough has a hard time makin' an informed choice about vegetables vs. ice cream.  Can't say I'm aware of any well-raised child of 8 who is spendin' much time thinkin' of sex.   Girls have cooties!      In da years from age 8-18 friends change, personalities change, desires change, behaviors change.

 

One thing that doesn't change is that kids make considerable effort to attract da attention of their parents or other folks in their lives, in whatever way seems to work.

 

Beavah

[NJCubScouter]

From a Christian perspective, God gave us ethical and moral guidelines so we as a community would guide (guard) the youth toward a consistent behavior acceptable by God. Now, I'm not professing that you accept a Christian's guide to acceptable behavior, but I am saying that when the community or culture lack some kind of  general guideline to keep fleeting youth fed emotions in check, those youth will tend to look for a sanctuary to encourage growth of those emotions. It's one thing to stand back and let the community steer a child into the dark unknown, it is quite another to contribute to that act by accepting their present state of mind as acceptable. Love is not giving into fickle delusions of emotional acceptance, but protecting the weak from self-serving deception.

But how do you know it's "deception"?

 

I really don't think this has anything to do with religion or morals or ethics. Based on a small amount of reading I have just done, it appears that a very small number of people (about 0.3 to 0.6 percent) are certain that their gender does not match the gender that was "assigned" at birth based on their physical attributes. Isn't it possible that this very small number of people are "wired" differently than the rest of us? Who am I (or you) to say it's not possible?

[cyclops]

Who am I (or you) to say it's not possible?

 

You must know already that this is all about 'control'.