Many Small Troops vs. One Big Troop

[Fat Old Guy]

My troop pretty much has a lock on Scouting for at least a good 10 miles. We're not big, but we're not small. I beleive that we currently have about 50 registered Scouts with about 35 of them actually showing up on a regular basis (some of the others carry a dual registration with the local Venture Crew for some unknown reason).

 

Reading stuff here and talking to Scouters at RT and at Summer Camp, I have come to realize that some areas might have two, three, four or more troops all competing for the same pool of boys. Consequently, some of these troops are only 8 or 9 Scouts.

 

It seems that having a number of small troops instead of one larger troop is self defeating. When you have only 8 Scouts, if two drop out, you're in BIG TROUBLE. If we lost 13 Scouts, we'd have to do some juggling but we wouldn't be in trouble unless that became an annual trend.

 

I guess the question here is, "Why do so many little troops exist?" Rather than forming a new troop and struggling, why not just join a bigger troop and take advantage of what they have to offer?

[Zahnada]

I also come from a big troop. I noticed that whenever we tried to recruit new scouts, the boys and their parents always had the same concern. "Will we just fall through the cracks of such a big troop?"

 

Part of the concern has to do with leadership and I always assure them that leadership is proportional to the size of the troop. As a larger troop, we have more positions for boys to be leaders. But the other thing they were concerned about is that it's easy for a boy to fade away into a big troop without anyone knowing. As you said, 13 boys can leave your troop and it wouldn't make much difference. The problem is that some big troops let those 13 scouts walk out the door and hardly notice. A small troop might make more of an effort to retain scouts.

 

I know that my troop, while maintaining its size, had a horrible drop out problem for many years. It was just too easy to forget about certain boys especially if they're the quiet ones. If one boy never goes on outings, who notices? Luckily this problem has been mostly fixed.

 

But, now for the virtues of a big troop. I think a large troop offers more opportunities for boys. A large troop needs more troop guides and more instructors. A boy of 14 can find himself teaching a class or leading a game to 20 younger boys. A large troop also forces the boys to push themselves. As mentioned above, it's hard to stand out in a big troop which is a minus and plus because it means that someone who wants to be a Patrol Leader or SPL cannot passively wait for the opportunity. Large troops also mean more responsibility for the Junior Leaders. For an SPL and his staff to have responsiblity for 50 or more boys is tremendous. Now that's a learning experience.

 

So, I guess having a big troop is just what you make of it (banal, I know). Personally, I think the positives of a troop of 40 (Jamboree size) or more outweighs the negatives. Although when my troop peaked at 120, it had grown too large.

[EagleInKY]

Gee, this is always a hard one. It has to do a lot with personal preference and personalities. I've never been involved in a huge troop. The largest I've been involved with was around 40 boys. My personal feeling is somewhere around 30-40 boys is optimal. You usually have around 8-10 new scouts, a core of 15-20 2nd-3rd year scouts, and a senior group of around 10 scouts. It allows you to put on a really solid, well-balanced program.

With that said, I've seen some outstanding large troops. There are a couple of them close by. They have great programs. The biggest problems they have is in figuring out where they can go as a troop. One troop I know of has to put on their own summer camp, because the council camp just can't support their size.

We started our own troop last year with 9 boys. We're growing to 15 next week. We expect to get 10-15 more next year from the Pack. Why did we do this, with 3 small troops and 1 large troop within 5 miles? Over the five years I served as Cubmaster, I saw close to 90% of our graduating Webelos were dropping out during their first year of Boy Scouts. I felt this was way to high. I talked to many of the parents and a few of the boys, and this is what they said:

 

The ones that went to the large troop (about 1/3) said that the boys from our pack were "lost in the shuffle". With this troop graduating 20-30 Webelos from their pack every year, our 2-3 boys would simply have trouble fitting in. I think there may have been a little social pressure, too, since our pack is a little more rural, and the troop in a more suburban area.

The ones that went to the local small troop (close to 1/2) simply didn't like the program. It's an extremely laid-back troop. They pretty much let the boys do what they want. I suspect there is a little bit of hazing of new boys going on, but have no evidence to back it up.

The rest (less than 1/3) have wandered around to other troops in the area. They usually drop out because they had no connection with the boys in the troop and struggle fitting in.

So, I went a little off-topic, but the bottom line is it depends. Personalities, background, social pressues... they all have an impact. I will disagree with one statement, I believe there are many more leadership opportunities in a small troop. We have young scouts being asked to step up and be PL and SPL, with very little experience and no older scouts to model. Recently I was on an Eagle BOR for the large troop I spoke of. The boy had only held two POR over nearly 7 years. With so many boys, he was never forced out of his comfort zone to try and lead in new ways.

Just some rambling thoughts. Thanks for the relevant subject.

[SR540Beaver]

I believe our Troop had about 15 to 20 boys registered and about 10 to 12 active when we joined last month. My sons Webelos den of 5 crossed over 4 boys to our Troop and 1 to another Troop. Our Troop also picked up 2 boys from another Pack and my son's best friend is joining next week. So we have 7 brand new scouts. Our Troop quit putting much into recruiting for some reason in the last few years. Most of their scouts were 15 to 17 years of age. I think it finally dawned on them that the troop was going to become non-existant once the boys aged out. Right now we are having to deal with having a group of 11 and 12 year olds and another group of 16 and 17 year olds with nothing inbetween. Our goal is to try to bring in around 6 to 8 boys per year and get an even age spread in coming years. We would like to follow BP's model of 32 scouts. Of course if we ended up with 64 boys, we wouldn't be upset with it! We have at least a couple of "super" troops in our area that run over 100 boys. We have many more that are probably under 20 boys. From my discussions with other Scouters, they all seem to equally love the program as do their scouts. I think as long as you have a good program and you don't just have 4 or 5 scouts, the boys don't really care how large they are. I'd venture a guess that one of the reasons there are so many small troops is because of the number of charter organizations that want a scouting program. If you only had one or two organizations in a city of 100,000 that were willing to be charters, they could grow pretty large. If you have 100 organizations, the boys will be spread out and most troops will be smaller.

[John-in-KC]

A few years back a good friend of mine did his "Doctor of Commissioner Service" thesis.

 

He concluded, after surveying units and evaluating National program materials, that a good round number of Scouts in a Troop is about 45. That number fills the leadership positions without having Scouts double up, and allows room for advancement.

 

For FOG ... there are activities the G2SS restricts to chartered Varsity teams OR Venturing crews, and at least one activity (handgun shooting) restricted SOLELY to Crews.

 

YIS John

[frank10]

I feel that we deliver a program that is great for many boys but not for all boys. Some scouts need more structure in their program than we deliver. Some boys can't meet on Mondays nights due to CYO classes at ST. Francis church. Point is we need other troops in town, one size does not fit all. We will even take a leaving scout to their first meeting at any of the area troops to be sure they get credit for anything they are working on.

[Fat Old Guy]

"For FOG ... there are activities the G2SS restricts to chartered Varsity teams OR Venturing crews, and at least one activity (handgun shooting) restricted SOLELY to Crews."

 

I guess I wasn't clear. The boys with dual registration are not active with the troop. All they do is send a check in once a year. That's why I was wondering why they have dual registration.

[VentureScoutNY]

My First Troop when I joined had about 30 active scouts in it. By the Time I became the SPL we had 12 registered Scouts in our Troop. 8 or 9 active Scouts that attended meetings. Our SM was a corpse for lack of better words. When I became SPL I introduced The Patrol Method to the Troop. Before this, there was NO PLC. Meetings and campouts were planned by the adults. Maybe this was because the Troop started in 1991 with 5 New Scouts and 3 Veteran Scout Leaders. So from around 91-95, when I entered the Troop, thats how it was run. And it worked, although it took much power from the scouts and left it to the hands of the leaders.

 

The Scoutmaster a great man, and my role model for many years ran the troop this way. To be honest, no one knew any other way to run it. Leadership positions were still carried out, Patrol Meetings were attended. But overall control of the Troop was not in the PLC, since there really was not one.

 

When I became SPL the Scoutmaster had been retired for a year. The new SM was no better than a dying cat. By the time I was SPL I realized the Troop was not run correctly, and tried to change it. I introduced The Patrol Method, and after a few months it started working. The PLC met regularly, and we planned our trips, meetings etc... But it was difficult doe to the fact I had 9 scouts to work with. Activites were limited, due to a lack of attendance. But we finally started planning good trips etc... My last great hoorah in the Troop led to a Grand trip to the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia, Camp Powatan. We signed up for the 50 miler trek. TO make a Long Story short, an adult was injured on the Trek far from Base camp. The other leaders( well leader was their official title, they had no skills to lead anything) felt it was more important to make the next activity than to let the slow injured adult set the paceand stay together. BTW the injured adult was the adult in charge of the trip and I was the SPL in charge of Scouts, around 6 of them.

 

This led to a hospital visit, and 2 certificates of Merit being given to myslef and my fellow scout for staying with the injured adult, and many of us transfering to a new troop.

 

Anway that was a long tangent, sorry. In my area there are many troops, some with 50+ scouts in it. Small Troops are limited to the things they can do. Large troops also have their drawbacks...

 

It really depends on the quality of the people you are involved with who can make or break a Troop.

[scoutldr]

FOG, the answer to your question is obvious. The goal of the DE is more units, more boys, more money, not necessarily in that order. One of my scouts told me that his buddy's troop was about to fold, and I suggested to my DE that we just invite the 4-5 boys over to our troop, since they are in an adjacent neighborhood, and we were down to 8-9 actives. His response was "don't you dare...I don't want to lose a unit."

[Bob White]

Actually the requirements of the BSA Congressional charter, a goal of the BSA program, the purpose of District Committees, and the mission of Commissioning, is to be spreading the scouting program. As a Unit leader you should be unconcerned with how many organizations want to use scouting as their youth education program. You focus is supposed to be your next meeting. While Unit leader serve a single Unit every else I mentioned is working in the backgound to spread the mission of scouting. Everyone who wears the Wreath of Service has been given a responsibility to insure that every eligible youth has an opportunity to belong to a quality scouting program.

 

For that to happen any eligible organization that we can spread scouting to is going to get a scout unit or units. For quality scouting to happen for every eligible youth we will be involved in raising the funding needed to secure the future of the program in the community we serve. Because they are charged with that mission they are involved in recruiting and training more adult volunteers nd providing program support with Roundtables, Day camps, Summer Camps, and other District and Council events.

 

Unit Leaders primary responsibility is service to the Unit they are in. But there are people charged with a much broader responsibility and they deserve more respect than they are given by scouters who complain about work they are not responsible for doing.

 

It is not a matter of which is better, a large troop or several small troops as the title implies, it is a matter of what does it take to get the program out to EVERY ELIGIBLE YOUTH and serves the organizations who want to use the scouting program.

 

 

[Eamonn]

The number of people who accuse me as a District Chair. of only being interested in numbers is not a lot. This used to upset me. It doesn't any more.

I really would like to see a lot more youth in all of our programs.And I would like to see a lot more money come into the council so that we can improve the programs that we offer. I would love to see each District have all the equipment that they need for training and maybe do a better job in that department which would lead to a better program for the youth in all of our programs.

Sad to say I have been around Scouting long enough to know that there are peaks and valleys. The Big Troop today will at sometime in the future start to struggle and todays' Small Troop will become the Big Troop. In most cases this has to do with leadership. In the perfect world I would get reports about the big troop starting to slide and I and the key 3, District Committee and the Commissioners staff would ride in on a white horse and save the day. The good news is that sometimes this does happen. The sad news is that it doesn't happen often enough. While we have people who will rush in to save a unit from closure very often the Big Troop is eroding away and we are slow to take action. We kind of get fooled by reputation. We have one troop in the District that for many years has been the troop that people have looked up to and thought highly of. The decline in membership didn't send up a red flag. It just happened. However if I look back, ten years ago it was a troop of sixty and today it has twenty-four.

Late last year I was invited to a Court of Honor. I sat down and the gave me a wad of photos to look at taken on the troop trip to Canada. I flipped through the photos and was a little shocked to see very few of the Scouts. I asked how many people went to Canada and was informed that there was twelve, eight leaders and four Scouts. Across town there is a new troop, started with a den of graduating Webelos four or five years ago, with the sixteen Webelos that bridged over last month the troop membership will be over fifty.

Now that we are aware of what is happening to the other troop we are taking steps to make them aware that they have a problem and that we are willing to help.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

Ahhhh, a classic Bob White answer. Never ask "why?" or "what if?" Don't even wonder if there is anything outside the box. Don't ask how many other units are competing for Webelos in your area. Don't wonder if your five Scouts would be better off in a Troop of 40 or if some of your forty Scouts would be better off in a Troop of l5.

[SR540Beaver]

FOG,

 

Face it, your resposibility is to deliver the promise within your troop and to grow your troop. The DE's job is to grow more units who hopefully will concentrate on delivering the promise and growing their unit. Merging units is a step backwards. Each of the two units thinking of merging need to be concentrating on growing their program. It is hard enough work to keep up with one unit as opposed to looking over at the other guys plate to see what he has. If units are doing the job of recruiting new boys and Webelos, why should they need to concern themselves with what the "competition" is doing. If the Webelos den leader is doing their job, they have provided their boys with a look at many of the options out there. That is what we did and we had 100% cross over. The boy gets a look at the troop with 40 AND the troop with 10. Likewise, tThe troops promoted themselves to the various dens. I want my DE out there developing new units for even more boys. It is his job and I have no need to interfere. Meanwhile, I am doing my job so he doesn't have to worry about another failing troop. BW is spot on whether you like it or not.

[Fat Old Guy]

Oh Beaver Boy, neither you nor Bob White seem to have a clue about what the original qeustion was. I don't give a hoot about the DE and his desperate need to create new units. I want to know why it is better to have 20 units of 6 boys than three units of 40 boys.

[scoutldr]

My point was that it was better to offer the program to those 4-5 whose troop was folding than it was to keep a "Unit" on the books which was NOT delivering the promise. Did I mention that we have no Commissioner staff to speak of. So the problem is systemic...