Question about the Outdoor Code!

[SSScout]

Latin:   You have the right idea.   There is nothing so aggravating to a Manager (leader?)  as a crew that expects and REQUIRES a leader to lead.  

If your Scouts EXPECT and REQUIRE their Patrol Leader to  lead,  what might happen?  

 

Now there's a motto for you...   EXPECT and REQUIRE.   

[qwazse]

... my boys all have the oath and law memorized, along with the code, the slogan, and the motto. But that's because we talk about them at every meeting, and I want them prepared so that as soon as they graduate to the Troop, they can pass of their Scout rank at their first meeting. ...

No. You want them prepared so that -- as soon as they are in an open field of tall dry grass with a fire starter and time to kill -- they wont have to depend on an SM taking up the rear to come along and waste half his water securing the land against wildfire.

 

We can certainly hope that they make rank promptly after cross-over, but my observation is that, the better the troop in terms of activity and youth leadership, the more sudden the spread between levels of advancement from boy to boy in the same class. It takes a combination of determination on the boys' part and setting aside time for individual review on a PL's or TG's to move a cross-over even one rank.

 

But if you are available, especially to help chaperon if the boys decide as a patrol to have a special camping weekend, it will increase the opportunities to put all of those words into practice.

[blw2]

Actually, I'm two steps ahead of you there. First off, to keep things from getting boring I have a million and one different games and activities and exercises to help the boys remember the oath/law/code/etc. and we integrate them into the regular activities to keep them on their toes - that and I am a pretty energetic little guy, so I can keep things relatively fun (I teach preschool a lot, lol). But when the Scouting Adventure adventure (haha) requires them to practice the Patrol Method for a month, we practice the patrol method. Which means I teach them what it means and then let them go for it!

 

Secondly, I know for a fact that the ASM over the 11-year-old patrol is unproductive as a leader, and that there are scouts that he has had for a YEAR that still haven't reached the rank of Scout yet. So to prepare my boys for his lack of initiative, I am training them how to read and use the book to learn what they need while practicing the skills with each other - fortunately they will all stay in the same group when they cross over, so they already have an internal support network, and I am teaching them how to approach a leader to get things passed off and signed since he is definitely not the type that will stay on top of things - let alone the fact that that is the way things should be done anyway.

 

Basically, I want them to know how to be Boy Scouts before they become such - that way the idea of a boy-led organization will give them the drive to keep moving forward even if the adults in their unit don't lift a finger to help them. It's not ideal but they know what's ahead and they love Scouting, and I think they will succeed. Besides, their weekly meetings are in the classroom next to mine every week, so if worst comes to worst, they already know I am right next door and that they can come to me for anything, any time, for whatever reason, and I will be there to help them move forward. There will always be at least ONE leader who has got their backs. :-)

 

It sounds like you are really working hard to have your WEBELOS den be what a WEBELOS den really should be.

 

What I meant about being bored though isn't in your den.... it's the later part.

They know the oath an law, they are ready for the scout rank....

but then what happens when the new scout patrol ASM or his instructor has an agenda in place.... the 1st 5 troop meetings after crossover will be spent working on..... the oath.... the law.....etc....  And there is no bending them form this agenda.  The poor instructor will feel that he's not being listened too, and your poor scouts will soon come to the conclusion that scouts is boring.

 

It's what you say about teaching them how it works, how to read the handbook....and how to work with such a scouter.... that is what really has me encouraged more than having them already know all the stuff!  Really encouraging.  

It's what I wish that I would have been more aware of as ADL to help steer our DL when my son was in WEBELOS!

[The Latin Scot]

Oh goodness, I would hate for my boys to spoil their first meeting! I have been telling them to wait until AFTER the meeting is done before getting things passed off. Hopefully that helps mitigate any potential interruptions of the ASM's plans.

[DuctTape]

The ASM, TG, or Instructor should be flexible to the needs of the patrol, not implement their own agenda. Their job is to help, not hinder nor force.

[The Latin Scot]

Well, I am still pretty new at this whole Scout Leader thing - I just hit my one year mark last month. Hopefully I can refine my process eventually so that I can see things as clearly and work the program as expertly as you all do. I still have a lot to learn. 

[Stosh]

The ASM, TG, or Instructor should be flexible to the needs of the patrol, not implement their own agenda. Their job is to help, not hinder nor force.

 

 

Sounds a bit like you've been hanging around Stosh too much.....

[fred johnson]

Does one make the Scout sign when repeating the Outdoor Code?

 

No.  I'd be uncomfortable with that.  Salute during the pledge is fine.  Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay.  But do we salute the motto?  the slogan?  If not those, then why the code?  It's a code.    

 

IMHO, this reflects the ever growing verbosity of the BSA requirements.  I may like the new categories to organize the requirements.  But the requirements need categories now because they are so much more verbose.  Just too many words.  Requirements need to be more manageable for the youth who we try to teach managing their own advancement.  IMHO, the requirements are now written for an adult to manage, not a youth.

[DuctTape]

Sounds a bit like you've been hanging around Stosh too much.....

Perhaps someday we will be fortunate enough to share a campfire.

[blw2]

The ASM, TG, or Instructor should be flexible to the needs of the patrol, not implement their own agenda. Their job is to help, not hinder nor force.

as it should be, true enough.....

but we all know how it is....

a person puts some time and effort into thinking about what needs to be done, about how they want to do it, come up with an order of events in their minds, maybe even put together a power point or something.... bring along some props (like maybe some rope to practice knots with)

Then it is very hard and often unlikely that they will put all that aside. 

I've seen this done more than I can count off by adults in various settings (not just scouts), and a few times with scout instructors and such too.... so it's certainly not hard to imagine

[CalicoPenn]

No. I'd be uncomfortable with that. Salute during the pledge is fine. Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay. But do we salute the motto? the slogan? If not those, then why the code? It's a code. Back in the day, a Scout was indeed expected to use the Scout Sign when repeating the Scout Slogan and the Scout Motto, as well as the Outdoor Code (whis is the Scout's pledge of outdoor ethics).

[blw2]

No. I'd be uncomfortable with that. Salute during the pledge is fine. Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay. But do we salute the motto? the slogan? If not those, then why the code? It's a code. Back in the day, a Scout was indeed expected to use the Scout Sign when repeating the Scout Slogan and the Scout Motto, as well as the Outdoor Code (whis is the Scout's pledge of outdoor ethics).

in my way of thinking, the sign is simply a show of respect so I'm not seeing it's use as such of a problem.

It has been a while since I've read the scout handbook, and how it defines the sign, it's purpose, and use.

[The Latin Scot]

I think I am seeing some confusion between the Scout Sign and the Scout Salute. 

 

The Scout salute, according the the Webelos handbook, "is a form of greeting that also shows respect. Use it to salute the flag of the United States of America." The Boy Scout Handbook says essentially the same thing. Obviously, we don't use the salute when repeating the Oath or Law or whatever.

 

The Scout sign, according to the Webelos handbook, "is a universal symbol of Scouts ... The Scout sign is used to get people's attention." The Boy Scout handbook continues, "Give the Scout sign each time you say the Scout Oath and Scout Law."

 

Neither handbook says anything about making it when we say the motto, slogan, or the outdoor code. As such, I won't feel compelled to use it with the Outdoor Code now, but it is nice to know that they are still encourage to make the sign when they repeat the Oath and Law.

Edited December 29, 2016 by The Latin Scot

[qwazse]

I think part of the compulsion to have the boys make the sign while reciting the code comes from external definitions:

Scout's honor

1. 1.

   the oath taken by a Boy Scout or Girl Scout.

   • informal

     used to indicate that one has the same honorable standards associated with Scouts and so will stand by a promise or tell the truth.

 

So, folks outside of scouting use it as a means to vouchsafe a vow or testimony. That is, in reference to some previous statement, they will say "scout's honor" while making the sign.

 

For scouts themselves, such an action would be superfluous. They already promised to be trustworthy, etc ... So it is understood that they are expected to live up to any other claims, be it motto, code, or slogan.

[desertrat77]

It's not something I remember, and it always seems like an extra thing....a nuisance really.  One more thing that some well intentioned adult thought it would be good to add to the growing list of check boxes of things to be memorized.

 

+1

 

I also agree with Stosh--teach it on-site.

 

The current use of the code reminds me of the Great Loyalty Oath Crusade from the novel Catch 22.   Can't eat chow, etc., unless you sign a loyalty oath.   Balk at signing it and bingo, hey mac, aren't you loyal to the USA?!   Sure, Catch 22 is fiction and the example a bit overdrawn, but I think it makes the point.

 

I recently sat on an Eagle board, my first in years.   I was surprised to see that the Outdoor Code was recited right after the oath and law.    To me, the code was an unnecessary road bump, another hassle, on the way to the task at hand--asking the scout some tough questions and hearing his answers.   His own words.  Not memorized ones.

 

Sure, the code is short and easy to memorize.   But making scouts recite it, in proper form (whatever that might be), won't make them more outdoor minded. 

 

The scout's commitment to outdoor ethics is best demonstrated in the outdoors.  

Edited December 30, 2016 by desertrat77