BoR Tests ... Boy Balks

[Oldscout448]

Mess all around.  We require verification and PRE-approval of service hours, but that is all done ahead of time and if not recorded publicly for all to see in Troopmaster a Scout doesn't get the BOR.  Easier to clean up a mess before it happens.  No words on the knot tying, although our BORs wouldn't be shy about asking a Star to Life Scout how many knots he's taught other younger Scouts while mentoring them.

 

While the BOR/Troop is clearly in the wrong here the Scout could learn to handle himself better.  BOR members are in positions of authority here and respect to those with that power is rarely a bad idea.  Those in authority frequently abuse that authority, in the workplace and with law enforcement officers.  The advice to all in dealing with police who are abusing their power / are wrong is simple:  COMPLY and then complain.  Here these BOR members will abuse future Scouts.  How great it would have been for the Scout to COMPLY with their requests, acknowledge their authority, and then educate them at the end of the BOR the better way (BSA way) to conduct a BOR.  He would help himself, educate the BOR members, and save future Scouts from a similar fate if he went into that BOR with a different attitude and plan of action.  A great opportunity lost.  

 

In our country today, especially with politics, harm is being done by people talking AT people instead of TO people.  Furthermore, young folks seems to think that raising a stink is an effective strategy for change, which is rarely the case.  

I  am forced to differ with you sir, " COMPLY and then complain"   seldom produces any  positive result.   At least with police.  Once you have knuckled under to their " authority" they have little or no interest in anything else you say or do.   A complaint to their commanders simply puts you on their troublemakers list and your life can and often does become very carefully watched by a number of officers all hunting for any infraction no matter how minor.   

 

Mind you I am not saying the BoR would act in such a fashion,  but the " you will never make Eagle" guy doesn't strike me as a humble or teachable fellow.  Again I wasn't there.

 

Hopefully this is a case of a young man reacting in a somewhat childish manner to a demand he sees (rightly) as  over the line.   Followed by a adult bristling at a challenge from a young pup,  and once a few deep breaths are taken by all,  this can still have a happy ending

Edited December 13, 2016 by Oldscout448

[walk in the woods]

BOR members are in positions of authority here and respect to those with that power is rarely a bad idea.  

I have to disagree with this as well.  Authority is what authoritarians wield to control their subjects.  The Board has no authority here but rather the responsibility to challenge and coach the scout.  Teenage boys can be unpredictable; adults should anticipate.  

 

Based on Q's description it's not clear to me the scout presented his information in a disrespectful fashion to the board.  He may have but it's not presented as such.  The board members response is given as second-hand info (from the scout?) so it's not clear we can take a lot of meaning there either.  It would be interesting to sit with the scout and the board individually and separately to get the perspectives.

[qwazse]

... Based on Q's description it's not clear to me the scout presented his information in a disrespectful fashion to the board.  He may have but it's not presented as such.  The board members response is given as second-hand info (from the scout?) so it's not clear we can take a lot of meaning there either.  It would be interesting to sit with the scout and the board individually and separately to get the perspectives.

That's correct. I (and the ASM) know only what the scout told us. So, I can only give you the message the boy heard ... not the one that any on the committee actually said. Basically we were sitting with the scout, his two buddies (one youth one young adult), his dad and his younger brother (who will soon cross-over into this troop). But, we were chatting with the committee members before hand, while we thought the boy was going to just jump through the hoops. We kinda knew their opinion. So, I have no reason to doubt they reacted the way the boy said they did.

 

A decade ago, I may have done the same. The ASM is going to do the follow-up. After the boys left, we did a mild re-hash of the core issues.

 

Myself, I've been trying "speak when spoken to." On the other hand, I'm wondering if I could have spoken a week earlier and asked the board to rescind their decision and approve with no further review.

[blw2]

This whole thing brings a side question to my mind,.....

Can the board ask the scout to demonstrate a knot ... yes

Can the board fail him ONLY because of his inability to do so ... no.

In my thinking, gumbymaster is spot on.

 

But putting myself on that board (the first time around).

 

Let's say I'm the only member of that board that gets this concept

The scout can't tie the knot.  Other board members want to fail him, I do not.

what am I to do?

 

or

Let's say that two of us on a three member board think it this way.

What are we to do?

 

Can part of the board sign him off and push the paperwork without the consent of the rest of the board?

 

Guessing here, but what I think i'd do is go along on the follow-up board at a later date, based mostly on the fact of missing signoffs for the other stuff, but I might allow the other member's desire to retest the knot just to appease that person.  No reason the scout shouldn't be able to brush up on a knot, it would do him good after all.....

Then, if the scout reacted as described on the 2nd board, it might open up a new conversation about scout like behavior or whatever.....but that's another story.

[David CO]

My understanding is that a BoR must be unanimous in order for the scout to advance.

[NJCubScouter]

My understanding is that a BoR must be unanimous in order for the scout to advance.

 

Well, unless there is a successful appeal.  Hopefully this situation can be worked out so there is a unanimous board and no need for an appeal.  There is also the possibility (from the original post) that the Scout could have his BOR in a Venture Crew, which as I understand it would require the Scout to transfer his primary registration to the Crew.  (We had a Scout who was registered in both the troop and crew, who was considering doing that before starting on his Eagle project-process, due to "issues" with one of the leaders in the troop.  He would have had all of his Eagle project signoffs, Eagle application, unit leader conference and BOR all with the leaders of the crew.  Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and the Scout never did transfer and the Eagle process was completed within the troop.  And they all lived happily ever after.  Well, at least they all tolerated the situation and got through it with nobody yelling at anybody or going to council or switching units.)

[qwazse]

... the Scout could have his BOR in a Venture Crew, which as I understand it would require the Scout to transfer his primary registration to the Crew. ...

No transfer necessary.

Think about the reverse: a boy don't have to be primary in a crew to earn venturing awards.

[NJCubScouter]

No transfer necessary.

Think about the reverse: a boy don't have to be primary in a crew to earn venturing awards.

 

Are you saying a young man can have his secondary registration in a crew, primary in a troop, and earn Eagle in the crew, with the crew advisor serving as unit leader and crew committee members serving on the BOR?  If so, I am not saying you are wrong.  I am saying it is contrary to what I was told the one time that this issue seemed to be coming up. (By the Scout's father, who had looked into it and was involved in both units.  Of course, he could have been misinformed. Or maybe this is just another "rule" that my council made up that is not a rule from National and does not exist elsewhere.  This would not be the only issue on which my council seems to march to the beat of its own drummer.)

 

While you may be correct, your example does not necessarily prove it.  Venturing awards can only be earned in a crew, so if the boy is secondary in a crew, it makes sense that he can still earn Venturing awards in a crew, because that is the only place he can earn them.  So long as he has earned First Class in a troop, he can earn the later Boy Scout ranks in EITHER the troop or the crew, so it would not be illogical to require him to earn those ranks in the unit where he is primary.  But like I said, I do not actually know what the rule is.  I guess I was assuming that what I was told was correct, and we all know what happens when you assume.

[Eagle94-A1]

Are you saying a young man can have his secondary registration in a crew, primary in a troop, and earn Eagle in the crew, with the crew advisor serving as unit leader and crew committee members serving on the BOR?  If so, I am not saying you are wrong.  I am saying it is contrary to what I was told the one time that this issue seemed to be coming up.

 

I've seen it one time. Scout was primary with a troop, secondary with the summer camp Explorer Post/Crew (this was in the 1998-99 time frame). Long story short everything was completed with the troop, but something happened, and the EBOR was done via the post/crew.

 

Also know a Scout who had his Eagle COH through the crew, and not the troop. CO gave a week's notice that they could not have the ECOH at the troop's meeting site. Summer camp crew came through, found a location and did it.

[Stosh]

Any First Class scout can earn Eagle in a crew and does not need to be registered in the troop after attaining FC.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/MechanicsofAdvancement/Venturing.aspx

[qwazse]

Yeah, NJ it's probably a convention more than a rule. Keeps HQ from slip-ups.

 

In fact I have only one scout who earned his eagle "with" he crew. That's in quotes because it was a slip of the registrar's mouse that caused her to click the wrong unit in the drop-down. Nobody noticed until I got a phone call (instead of the SM) to pick up the kit. By then the scout said it wasn't worth going through the paperwork correcting the NESA card, and HQ was glad for one less troop to jump through.

 

As a practical matter, I can't see going that route without thorough communication with the SM. (Or other advisors, if the boy belongs to multiple crews.)

[NJCubScouter]

Any First Class scout can earn Eagle in a crew and does not need to be registered in the troop after attaining FC.

Right, but that's consistent with what I was told in my troop. In that case there has definitely been a transfer of "primary" registration, because there is only one registration at a time.

[NJCubScouter]

...and HQ was glad for one less troop to jump through.

I see what you did there.

[qwazse]

Follow-up: I laid out the various options to the scout in writing, and suggested he think kindly toward any adult who means him well.

 

He opted to maintain his primary membership with the troop and master and demonstrate his skills, documentation, etc ... to the board. He now has Life rank.

 

This process gave me time to explain that "Leadership Training" is a method of boy scouting, but "Leadership" is the method of venturing. (I.e.: Training's done. Time for action.) Going forward he wants to provide more leadership to the crew ... and has already started to line up events. So, I gave him rights to the mailing list and told him to get "the conversation" started.

 

Likewise regarding skills, I'm not wasting time testing, but I expect mastery. He promised he will learn "all the knots". So, last night I had him go grab the rope box, give everybody some lengths to work on, and they occupied their time going over the various schemes they learned to help them remember. (I'll add another topic about that.)

 

For their efforts, I gave them a pouch of coal (candy, from the cake-decorating shop).

Edited December 20, 2016 by qwazse

[SSScout]

K: "Hello, Jimmy, please sit down. You know Mr. Hoskins, and Ms  Schmidt?  "

J: "Yes, Mr. Kenney. Hello..."

K: " So, It says here you are here for your Life Board of Review.  How are you doing? "

J: "Okay, I guess." 

S: " Do you know all your knots?  I always am impressed when Scouts know these Scout things. Us girls never had a chance back when I was growing up. Could you show us a , what do you call it, a Bowline?"

J:  " A Bowline?"

S: " Yes, a Bowline."

H: "Now , Betty, you know he doesn't have to show us that, but  you do know that knot, Jimmy?"

J:  "I guess so.   Here, and here, ...  here."

K:   "Ummmm.   That isn't a Bowline, is it.   When was the last time you had to tie that, Jimmy?"

J:  " I don't know. Maybe last year at the Camporee?"

K:  " Well, that might show we need more knot tying practice. What do you think, Jimmy?  By the way, what Position do you hold in the Troop?"

J:  "I'm the Cougar Patrol Leader ".

H: "Let me ask, do you teach Scouts in your Patrol, Jim?"

J:  "Yeah,  I do, but Jake is our Troop specialist in Pioneering, I guess. He always builds those tripods and things."

H:  "Well, if you are having trouble with a knot,  I bet other Scouts have the same problem, too, What do you think?"

J: " Uh-huh. "

K:  "I see what Mr. Hoskins is getting at.  These Boards of Review are a good way for us to find out how to improve the Troop. Sometimes us poor adults don't get the big picture you Patrol Leaders see.  How do you think  we can help the younger Scouts  "get it"?   Got any ideas, Jimmy?" 

 

 ***Like that , maybe?  ***