den dues advice

[Stosh]

Yes, I see this distinction, and we could go on about the individual accounts, charitable donations and IRS regs on non-profits (please, lets not), however that does not change the fact that if a Unit has a checking account, the account should be using the CO's Federal Tax ID Number, and therefore, any monies in that account "belongs" to the CO, now they also own any liabilities as well, owing individual parents refunds for pre-paid expenses, outings or events comes to mind, and that is something addressed if and when it ever comes up.  But as a general CYA position, everything should be run through a single account, with at minimum dual controls and transparency to all.

 

Maybe there should be BSA training for unit treasurer's instead of the variety of differing opinions floating around the internet.

[blw2]

ok, a few comments.....

and yes, i agree some treasurer training and/or guidelines would be valuable.

 

I'm treasurer of our troop.  We recently went through a whole "restructure" of our finances in setting up a new bank account as I came on board, and I did a whole lot of digging and head slapping through the process.....  I'm no lawyer, and I'm not a CPA or any such thing.... and I'm paraphrasing here based on what I have learned, summing it up.  Could be that none of this is correct.

 

It's almost semantics, but the bit about the CO owning assets isn't exactly dead on right.  ..... The unit owns it.  If the unit dissolves, then it is up to the unit to settle out any debts, then the remaining assets go to the CO, for future scouting use or as agreed upon between the council and the CO.    The way my brain works, I think of it as the CO ultimately has ownership but it's under the care of the unit.

 

Most units nowadays get their own EIN to establish a bank account.  It's what we had to ultimately do.  Actually, most units are marching along with bank accounts and such set up long ago, so really I should say most new units would get their own EIN.

 

Take a look at this document

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units_March_2015.pdf

 

Also, I'd suggest calling your BSA Council office and speaking with the Accounting Specialist.

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So what we are doing is probably a lot more linear and perhaps "traditional".  

We have a treasurer and a bank account.  

We have 4 total people listed on the bank account as signers

We use a web based hosting service, troopwebhost, for our troop's site, calendar, roster, etc...  It has some decent tools set up for the financials, and in fact the author of the site originally set it up for this purpose.   He was a troop's treasurer.  I like it because everything is there.  Parents can log in to see their own and their scouts' stuff.  Any committee member can log in and see all transactions, receipts, etc.... transparency and full disclosure is what i'm all about.

I also like that it offers a tool for online payments...parents can use paypal  through a link on the troop's site to make payments.

 

I use our bank's online banking system to mail checks.  If anyone has an expense for reimbursement, they can take a picture of the receipt, email it to me, and I can have the bank mail them a check ASAP.  No need to wait for the next meeting and try to remember it.

 

At the pack level, it was pretty much the same.  All dues were paid at the pack level, as were fees for activities, campouts, etc...  If a Den leader had an expense (supplies, awards, etc...) they were free to submit it for reimbursement.  The only difference was we didn't have the online tools or the online banking so things were difficult and slow.

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I think what i would suggest really echoes what has already been said.  In the interest of "Cooperative Volunteering"  I'd try to not rock the boat too much, especially at first.

I like the point about treating the den pots as "petty cash".  that's no big deal.

I'm not so sure I would push for this, but you really could in theory set up the den leaders as signers on the bank account so that they have their own debit card.  they may like that and that could be an in to getting all the money into the bank and accounted for.....

     and you could set up a fund accounting system so that each Den has a "fund".....one account but $x belongs to den 1, $y belongs to den 2, etc....

    The issue with that is the conflict of interest, or perceived potential conflict anyway.  The same reason you don't want typically to have the Cubmaster's wife to be the Committee Chair and the treasurer. (the spender, the approver, and the coffer under one roof)

[curious_scouter]

As a follow-up here is where some time and additional research has lead.

 

" The way my brain works, I think of it as the CO ultimately has ownership but it's under the care of the unit."

This was basically what our council exec advised me.  Anything purchased with any pack monies, den dues or otherwise, is instantly the property of the CO.  It's kept under our care and you can even permit the Den who initiated the acquisition to have exclusive use of those items.  But they are the property of the CO and the CR has final say over their disposition.  

 

We have no bylaws or documentation about our processes.  So we're going to create one of those too.  This way everyone is on the same page all the time, or should be.  We've agreed on these high level principles:

• Den leaders will continue to collect, manage and secure den dues and other monies.
• Den leaders have the option to secure collected funds depositing in the pack account.  Anyone electing not to use this tool will be responsible for securing the funds themselves and for any loss of those funds.
• Dues are to be collected weekly, no annual payment of dues.
• Den leaders will begin to report to the committee once monthly on a standard report their status.
• Property purchased with any pack monies is the property of the CO and the CR has final say over disposition.
• TBD:  There is some consideration going into setting a max "carry over" with the expectation that Dens should plan to use all money collected in the run of the year.  A small "nest egg" carry over is okay, but we would like to see all monies in a program year spent on scouts in that program year.

This addresses a lot of the open concerns.  As Treasurer, my main concern is whether I was responsible for the care and maintenance of all this distributed money.  Sure - it's "Den Money" but ultimately it's not.  I worried a lot about "We lost $X when so and so quit.  You knew they were sitting on a pile of cash, why didn't you do something?"  Both from a personal and liability standpoint.  But this addresses that.  It allows the Den Leaders who take offense at not being allowed to hold the funds to do so, but it also puts the onus on them to secure it.  It also answers the question about what to do with property purchased by the Dens (and Pack) up to the CR which seems right and proper.  This sets the stage that by rights, the property will likely stay with the pack but leaves the door open for our CR to make a case-by-case decision.  It is also strongly aligned to proper BSA policies.  Asking for a report from all dens seemed sensible.  We came to an agreement that just because parents aren't asking for one - doesn't mean they don't want one.  Many parents will simply be too timid to ask or feel that it's confrontational to ask.  If it's a policy, they can ask the treasurer for a copy and take the conflict and personal element out of it.  Plus with a report the committee can get ahead of situations like "dues are not getting paid, Den leader X is out of pocket $300" which is actually happening, but only became apparent through our recent conversations.  So hopefully as a committee we can either help them there or we agree to make the leaders whole out of the pack account if Den Dues are not working.  It's my position that noone should have to spend a small fortune being a Den Leader.  All DLs I've ever known are generous with their time and also tend to "splurge" on their boys, but buying everyone's belt loops out of pocket is beyond what I would expect from any volunteer in our pack.

 

Finally we discussed and we feel strongly that weekly dues payments have a lot of value.  First, dues are intended to be an exercise in responsibility for the boys.  Boys should pay their dues to the Den Leader weekly as a way of building responsibility.  Remembering to bring their money, remembering to have it recorded with the Den Leader.  They should also work with their parents to define a way to earn those dues monies throughout the week in some fashion.  We feel this is a very large character building aspect of dues which has been overlooked as many parents tend to pay the dues to the DLs and in lump sums.  Secondly, by paying weekly the DL can adjust dues policy mid-year.  If they get halfway through and look to be way ahead on dues - they can cut them back or suspend them or make plans on how to use any surplus.

[Stosh]

Paying dues is a requirement of the program, it does not fall under any charitable contribution for the CO and is therefore not part of the CO's money under their not-for-profit status.  It is no different than paying for summer Bible camp through a church or YMCA membership.  One cannot take a tax deduction for such activity.  This funds are held differently than charitable contributions.

[blw2]

With the idea of letting the DL's choose how to collect and hold, it seems like a piece of the puzzle or two might have been over looked

If the DL is managing the budgets and expenses for the den

Who pays pack level expenses, and where does that money come from?

How can you affectively work budgets as a unit?

[Stosh]

With the idea of letting the DL's choose how to collect and hold, it seems like a piece of the puzzle or two might have been over looked

If the DL is managing the budgets and expenses for the den

Who pays pack level expenses, and where does that money come from?

How can you affectively work budgets as a unit?

It's the same as any other scout budget.

 

I have individual patrol accounts the same way as troops have individual scout accounts.  What's the difference other than it's a lot easier with a half dozen patrols than 60 scouts.......

 

How is having individual den accounts any different.

 

If Joey puts $10 in his individual scout account to hold for Philmont expense, does that money belong to the CO? Nope! No tax write-off!

If Joey puts $1 in his den/patrol account to hold for some of his craft supplies, does that money belong to the CO?  Nope! No tax write-of!

If Joey puts $10 of his money as a donation to his troop to use for anything it wants, does that money belong to the CO?  Yep! No problem with taking it as a tax write-off.