SM pulls rank advancement after successful BOR

[David CO]

2 hours ago, CaliGirl said:

I know this is from a long time ago

Yes, it has been long time.  It didn't surprise me (back then) that a SM might get miffed at a scout.  It does surprise me (now) that he would still be holding a grudge 3 years later.  

[Buggie]

I know of an event a few decades ago where National made the rule, Troop refused to follow, CO got involved and told the Troop "you will follow the BSA National rule". Troop said "you can't make us"  CO said no more charter. 

If there's one thing I've learned from David CO, Charter Orgs are in charge. 

Scout of one of the families involved on the former CO side was then targeted by the former SM and friends of SM for when that scout went to the Eagle Board, of which they were involved and led. Eagle Chair didn't even bother looking at the scout's project etc. Said he was in no way ever going to become an Eagle as long as he had something to say about it. Scout walked out, parent who saw what happened called another nearby district and was told, "That won't fly."  Council got involved and took over this scout's Eagle BOR.  Scout showed a lot of character and tenacity throughout all of this. Scared out of his pants really, going to a council staffed BOR instead of a district. Many years later he found out how the council folks viewed in such high regards his attitude, character, and how he handled everything about the situation. 

So yah, there's a lot of jerks out there and they are so willing to destroy youth to make themselves feel better. And a lot of folks willing to turn their heads in those situation because it's this great guy they all know and love, so he can't be held accountable. 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, Buggie said:

... So yah, there's a lot of jerks out there and they are so willing to destroy youth to make themselves feel better. And a lot of folks willing to turn their heads ...

Sure, it’s a big country so sooner or later your gonna cross paths with these types ... but, there’s a lot more folks willing to stand up for their youth.

[Thunderbird]

7 hours ago, CaliGirl said:

I know this is from a long time ago but it deserves an update:

Would it surprise anyone here to learn that the Unit Commissioner from the old Unit was the very same Commissioner for the new Unit?  And guess who paid a visit to the new Unit on the very same night my Scout was to have his Life Board of Review?  Our Commissioner does not visit the Troop.  I sat on the other BORs for the night and our Commissioner was silent.  However, when I excused myself for my Scout's BOR, the Commissioner took over the BOR (even though the Troop's COR and Advancement Coordinator were in attendance) and he grilled the Scout mercilessly and RETESTED him for 45 minutes, until a Committee member told him to stop.  He then tried to persuade the Committee not to pass the Scout.  They passed him because they knew him, and this man did not.  He was basing his opinion on the old Scoutmaster, who was his buddy.

This is what happens in the BSA when you are treated unfairly and ask for help.  This is what happens when a District and Counsel are AWARE of a rogue Scoutmaster and allow him to continue.  My Scout was not the only victim of mistreatment in the old Troop.  But everyone knew about this Scoutmaster and just let it happen....

Just curious, but why was the Unit Commissioner acting as a member of the Life BOR?  Was he just supposed to be observing, but then got carried away?

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Buggie said:

they are so willing to destroy youth to make themselves feel better. 

No matter how unfair and arbitrary the circumstances in a particular case may be, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that leaders "destroy youth" when they deny advancement.  

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Buggie said:

If there's one thing I've learned from David CO, Charter Orgs are in charge. 

Thanks.  My Chartered Organization was definitely in charge.  The CO owned the unit.  Even so, it never involved itself it matters relating to advancement.  

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by David CO

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Buggie said:

And a lot of folks willing to turn their heads in those situation because it's this great guy they all know and love, so he can't be held accountable. 

That's not always the reason.  As an IH, I wouldn't have hesitated to use my authority if I thought the issue was important.  I just didn't think boy scout ranks, and advancement issues in general, were very important.

If there is one thing I have learned on this forum, it is that many people feel that ranks and advancement are all-important.  Some people join scouting for the sole purpose of making eagle.  I find this very odd.

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by David CO

[fred8033]

12 hours ago, CaliGirl said:

Would it surprise anyone here to learn that the Unit Commissioner from the old Unit was the very same Commissioner for the new Unit?  And guess who paid a visit to the new Unit on the very same night my Scout was to have his Life Board of Review?  Our Commissioner does not visit the Troop.  I sat on the other BORs for the night and our Commissioner was silent.  However, when I excused myself for my Scout's BOR, the Commissioner took over the BOR (even though the Troop's COR and Advancement Coordinator were in attendance) and he grilled the Scout mercilessly and RETESTED him for 45 minutes, until a Committee member told him to stop.  He then tried to persuade the Committee not to pass the Scout.  They passed him because they knew him, and this man did not.  He was basing his opinion on the old Scoutmaster, who was his buddy.

This is what happens in the BSA when you are treated unfairly and ask for help.  This is what happens when a District and Counsel are AWARE of a rogue Scoutmaster and allow him to continue.  My Scout was not the only victim of mistreatment in the old Troop.  But everyone knew about this Scoutmaster and just let it happen....

 

Adults often volunteer for positions to get one-up on someone else.  It's sad and it's 100% wrong.  Unit commissioners have no place injecting themselves into the workings of the troop they are mentoring.  

I would submit a complaint directly to the council leadership.  ... IF IT IS AS YOU REPRESENT ... he should be removed as a commissioner.  I'd argue he has the wrong attitude and he went after a scout.  It's an indicator he should not be a registered scouter ... but that's up to the council.

Send a direct, specific, concise statement (incident and history) and send it to the the council scout executive, director of advancement and the council commissioner.  

[David CO]

16 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I would submit a complaint directly to the council leadership. 

I disagree.  Individual parents do not have the authority to represent the unit.  The COR is appointed by the Chartered Organization to represent the unit on all matters of unit-council relations.  If the unit is going to ask the council to replace the commissioner assigned to their unit, it should be the COR who makes the complaint.  If the parent wants a complaint made to the council, then the parent should ask the COR to make the complaint.

It is important to remember that the complaint is about a commissioner whose actions exceeded his authority.  It doesn't make sense for the parent to exceed his/her authority by speaking for the unit.  Let the COR do his job.

 

[fred8033]

7 hours ago, David CO said:

I disagree.  Individual parents do not have the authority to represent the unit.  The COR is appointed by the Chartered Organization to represent the unit on all matters of unit-council relations.  If the unit is going to ask the council to replace the commissioner assigned to their unit, it should be the COR who makes the complaint.  If the parent wants a complaint made to the council, then the parent should ask the COR to make the complaint.

It is important to remember that the complaint is about a commissioner whose actions exceeded his authority.  It doesn't make sense for the parent to exceed his/her authority by speaking for the unit.  Let the COR do his job.

We can disagree.  Most CORs won't do anything.  The CC and SM should.  But parents absolutely have the right to stand up for their kids when their kids are wronged.

[David CO]

39 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

We can disagree.  Most CORs won't do anything.  The CC and SM should.  But parents absolutely have the right to stand up for their kids when their kids are wronged.

Two wrongs don't make a right.  

[Eagledad]

Ironically, my go to person for getting action in this kind of situation is the District Commissioner (UC's director).  Like Fred, my experience is COR's aren't reliable in these things. Sure, keep them in the communication loop, but don't wait for them to act. 

As for telling a parent their place of authority in a volunteer youth organization, the threat of litigation always levels the field. 

Barry

[SSScout]

Should the Scoutmaster be held to account for his lack of Scout Spirit and not following BSA guidelines ? Yes.

Should the Scout accept the brunt of this man's vengeful behavior (and that is what it is, the Scout not bending to the SM's will) ? No.

Should the parents of this Scout speak up for what they see as un-Scoutlike behavior ? Most definitely yes. And all the other parents.

Should the COR and IH of the CO involved be apprised of all this ?  Yes. A long sit down and several cuppas are called for.

Should the COR be involved? It is their noted responsibility. 

Should the District Executive, the District Commissioner, the Council Scout Executive and the Advancement Chairs of Council and District be apprised?   Yes.

Should a journal like documentation be made?  A very good idea.  Include other folks names and signatures.  

I have great sympathy for these men's families, both the SM and the UC as described. 

A Scoutmaster and Commissioner are supposed to be about the Scouts, not the Scoutmaster or Commissioner.  

 

[Eagledad]

7 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Should the Scoutmaster be held to account for his lack of Scout Spirit and not following BSA guidelines ? Yes.

Should the Scout accept the brunt of this man's vengeful behavior (and that is what it is, the Scout not bending to the SM's will) ? No.

Should the parents of this Scout speak up for what they see as un-Scoutlike behavior ? Most definitely yes. And all the other parents.

Should the COR and IH of the CO involved be apprised of all this ?  Yes. A long sit down and several cuppas are called for.

Should the COR be involved? It is their noted responsibility. 

Should the District Executive, the District Commissioner, the Council Scout Executive and the Advancement Chairs of Council and District be apprised?   Yes.

Should a journal like documentation be made?  A very good idea.  Include other folks names and signatures.  

I have great sympathy for these men's families, both the SM and the UC as described. 

A Scoutmaster and Commissioner are supposed to be about the Scouts, not the Scoutmaster or Commissioner.  

 

When I stated doing scouting stuff at the district and council level, I developed a great deal of respect for the paid scouters because I observed and experienced a lot of bad acting by volunteers. The tragedy of a any volunteer organization is that volunteers with bad character are given authority positions because the organizations need volunteers to function. There is no real interview or mental testing of these folks, so you get a lot of folks in positions of authority that would never be given such responsibility anywhere else. And, even the non volunteer parents who are indirectly involved will often make a mountain out of molehills. As a unit leader, I've been involved with several situations where volunteers were asked to stay away from the scouts. But, when I saw how often the paid scouters had to deal with these people on a daily basis, I don't know how they put up with it. I really don't. 

SSScout's list is ideal, but it is not real world. Don't get me wrong, the OPs situation is bad. But, there are a lot of situations that are much more serious. And most situations don't just happen out of the blue. They more often develop in front of witnesses over weeks or months to where eventually the situation crosses the line and has to be dealt with in a serious manner. This happens because most people don't like confrontation and turn a blind eye. They are waiting for that one person, maybe even the parent, to step up and stop it. And then the responsible adults get a call in the middle of night. And once in a while, the call comes from the police. I have that T-Shirt.

Yes, in this situation, the committee should have stepped in. But I could tell by the OPs post that the committee didn't have the courage. Most of committees don't. Interestingly to me, I find moms make better CCs for this one reason. Their motherly instinct that we often talk about getting in the of the Patrol Method is also the instinct that will stop bad acting by adults. When I look to build a unit adult staff, I learned to look for balance. A good unit requires understanding the goals of the program while insuring the program is safe. That is harder than you would think.

Barry

[SSScout]

Eagledad:  Yep, the ideal.  Somebody ought to do something about (this).

  Yep,  very often,  nobody will step up and "do something".   Why? Because "I might be wrong".  "I don't want to get involved".  "I don't want to embarrass an (otherwise) good person."  "I haven't got the time for this."   "It's not my problem."   "Somebody else, better equipped than I, will take care of it."   "I might be affected/hurt/threatened."  

 This is what "assertiveness" training in our schools is about.  Our kids are correctly taught about this....    Child abuse?   See something say something?  If it makes you uncomfortable, speak to an adult you trust?  yep.   It does take a certain amount of.... ""A Scout Is Brave."" 

Make the ideals well known (Scout Promise, Scout Law, Golden Rule,  US Constitution to name a few) and then when something don't seem right, speak up about it.   

As Barney Fife used to say, "You got to nip it in the bud ! Nip, nip, nip it ! "   

The longer such problems are allowed to continue, the harder they are to "nip". 

And it's certainly not just Scouts.......is it ?