Flag Ceremony at a Business

[witch359]

If it were Target instead of Chick-fil-a, would your troop committee have the same qualms?

 

That's the same question I asked myself (except I used the example of Planned Parenthood).

 

I'm not saying the point is invalid; I think they may be right, just for the wrong reasons. Again, I'm just irritated that they felt they had to weasel around and find some other rule in order to get what they wanted.

 

Which goes back to my original question: Is there a rule against this? And I think the answer is no.

Edited November 11, 2016 by witch359

[qwazse]

@@NJCubScouter, so CF should have it's image sullied (by boys in uniform abstaining from it) because its CEO's on occasion voiced opinions that Target did not? Isn't that precisely the political activism that we want the boys to avoid?

 

@@witch359, some pointers:

1. If your boys wanted to participate here, they (SPL or designated PL) should have contacted the restaurant. I wouldn't count it as service hours if they weren't involved in every aspect of the event.
2. The committee's job is to support the mission of the troop (which largely is defined by the boys), not to impede it. I have told mine on occasion to back off of my youth.
3. The onus is on the adults to show where it is explicitly written that scouts in uniform cannot help a business in honoring the many veterans who may have worked or there or patronized them or simply meant a lot to them.
4. Lacking written policies. You may let the boys know that there are concerns raised by activist adults and leave it up to the boys to decide how to honor them.
5. If it's a written apology to the business to cancel plans or an apology to the concerned adults for sticking to them, the boys time composing the letter should count for service hours -- if the boys need you to count them.

P.S. - I hate to high heaven when anyone does anything "for service hours", but it's nothing personal. (Considering we just "met". and welcome to the forums, BTW.) So please take that last point with a full dose of sarcasm toward BSA and none toward your good intentions.

P.P.S. - The flagpole is a public place. Presumably welcome by the business to all citizens of and visitors to your great state.

P.P.P.S - I was really hoping it was a Hooters, or a biker bar.

Edited November 11, 2016 by qwazse

[NJCubScouter]

Which goes back to my original question: Is there a rule against this? And I think the answer is no.

To determine the answer to that, I think you would need to know, among other things, whether there are going to be any speeches at this ceremony, who is speaking, and what the subjects of the speeches are. After knowing that, you would have a clearer picture of whether it is a "political event", although people might still disagree about whether it is political or not. I believe the policy on political events is that the Scouts could do the flag ceremony but then "retire" so that their presence cannot be interpreted as an "endorsement" of what is being said. I am paraphrasing the policy there, but that is the gist of it.

[NJCubScouter]

@@NJCubScouter, so CF should have it's image sullied (by boys in uniform abstaining from it) because its CEO's on occasion voiced opinions that Target did not? Isn't that precisely the political activism that we want the boys to avoid?

I didn't say that or anything like that, but I don't have time right now to go syllable-by-syllable as to how you have twisted my words around, and how you have selectively chosen facts regarding the organization in question.

 

I also wonder whether this is any way this thread can stay in "Open Discussion" at this point.

Edited November 11, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[witch359]

You all make good points. And my intention here is not to start a debate on what companies hold what views or which ones are right or wrong.

 

Also, I'm asking this question mostly for my education and knowledge as a scout leader. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is closed as far as my troop goes. But if a similar question ever arises again, I can respond in a more objective and knowledgeable way.

[qwazse]

I didn't say that or anything like that, but I don't have time right now to go syllable-by-syllable as to how you have twisted my words around, and how you have selectively chosen facts regarding the organization in question.

 

I also wonder whether this is any way this thread can stay in "Open Discussion" at this point.

Sorry. I don't mean to accuse anyone in particular of social activism. Or to minimize the cultural divides that set citizens at odds with one another.

 

I do mean to challenge the notion that we are obliged to cow-tow to guilt by association when it comes to social issues.

[NJCubScouter]

And my intention here is not to start a debate on what companies hold what views or which ones are right or wrong.

I wouldn't worry about having started a debate, it is a very easy thing to do in this forum without even trying.

 

And by the way, welcome to the forum!

[walk in the woods]

If you have boys that want to do the ceremony, and the committee is opposed, tell the boys to ditch their uniforms for black slacks and white shirts and perform the ceremony as members of the community.  Deterring boys from participating in a Veteran's Day ceremony is, well, something unscoutlike. 

[krikkitbot]

Bingo!

 

It's a Chick-Fil-A. And, oh yeah, I'm in Massachusetts. Does this help fill in the blanks?

 

The initial argument I got was largely social/religious. Then it turned to it being a business. What really irks me is that many people are trying to make a social statement and don't really care what the rules say (or don't say).

 

So, now that you have the whole picture, what do you think?

Well, you could have done a Hooters and fewer people might have complained.

[NJCubScouter]

Well, you could have done a Hooters and fewer people might have complained.

A thread from a couple of months back suggests otherwise.

[LVAllen]

To determine the answer to that, I think you would need to know, among other things, whether there are going to be any speeches at this ceremony, who is speaking, and what the subjects of the speeches are. After knowing that, you would have a clearer picture of whether it is a "political event", although people might still disagree about whether it is political or not. I believe the policy on political events is that the Scouts could do the flag ceremony but then "retire" so that their presence cannot be interpreted as an "endorsement" of what is being said. I am paraphrasing the policy there, but that is the gist of it.

 

Flag Ceremonies are offered universally.  Whether someone may have an irrational hatred of CFA does not convert a flag ceremony or Pledge of Allegiance into an endorsement of CFA, any more than a flag ceremony at a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or Green Party political rally does.  Because it is a display of loyalty to the nation, the ceremony is ALWAYS acceptable and deemed to be part of the civic process.

 

The Troop Committee's role is to advise the Scoutmaster on BSA policies.  If they can't point to a BSA policy that prohibits the Scouts from this sort of activity, they should be told, in a courteous and kind manner, to back off.  In this case, BSA's policy expressly allows the scouts to perform this sort of civic duty for businesses, churches, and political events.  Planned Parenthood?  Sure.  CFA?  Sure.   

 

If you don't want to count them as service hours, that's fine.  Service to me means something out-of-the-ordinary, something the Scouts go out of their way to do.  Maybe something they wouldn't typically do over the course of their day.  But Flag ceremonies?  That's kind of something Scouts do.

[Oldscout448]

I was mentally composing my post as I read this thread. Until I got to LVAllen's.   What he said.   Its a flag ceremony, we are Scouts  

[David CO]

Flag Ceremonies are offered universally.  Whether someone may have an irrational hatred of CFA does not convert a flag ceremony or Pledge of Allegiance into an endorsement of CFA, any more than a flag ceremony at a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or Green Party political rally does.  Because it is a display of loyalty to the nation, the ceremony is ALWAYS acceptable and deemed to be part of the civic process.

 

The Troop Committee's role is to advise the Scoutmaster on BSA policies.  If they can't point to a BSA policy that prohibits the Scouts from this sort of activity, they should be told, in a courteous and kind manner, to back off.  In this case, BSA's policy expressly allows the scouts to perform this sort of civic duty for businesses, churches, and political events.  Planned Parenthood?  Sure.  CFA?  Sure.   

 

If you don't want to count them as service hours, that's fine.  Service to me means something out-of-the-ordinary, something the Scouts go out of their way to do.  Maybe something they wouldn't typically do over the course of their day.  But Flag ceremonies?  That's kind of something Scouts do.

 

The Troop Committee may also advise the Scoutmaster on the Chartered Organization's policies.

[Stosh]

Let me get this straight.

 

"Someone" asked the scouts to do a flag ceremony.  BUT everyone tosses in their 2-cents worth of trivia.

 

1) For-profit business vs. not-for-profit business.  It's okay for McDonalds, but not Chick-fil-A?  It's okay for Target with it's "anything goes" bathroom policy, but not Hobby Lobby who closes on Sunday so families can have time together?  Has to be a not-for-profit like Planned Parenthood to be okay.

 

2) Alcohol served on premise? It's okay for the American Legion to CO a scout unit when it serves alcohol off to the side of the large room where the scouts meet every week, but one can't accept volunteer help from "certain" people who work at "certain" places that serve alcohol.

 

I think the boys should not be doing flags for anyone, anytime, anywhere except at unit events and BSA facilities. 

 

The next thing to hit the fan will be when the boys are asked to do the opening flag ceremony at a 49ers game and the players refuse to stand for the honors or even more politically incorrect when the boys are asked to do the flags at a Washington Redskins opening.

 

It's time we get with the politically correct crowd and toss "help other people at all times" out of the oath or at least bring it up-to-date with wording such as "help other people at all times as long as it is doesn't cause angst for .0001% of the population.

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the timeâ€.â€
― John Lydgate

 

Recently I was a shelter manager for the American Red Cross and rode out Hurricane Matthew.  The 150 people I was responsible for were without power and basically stranded for a week until the National Guard could cut their way into the small town where I was and then it took more time to restore power and get things back in order.  One of the first things I got help with was acquiring a carton of cigarettes through the help of local law enforcement personnel.  The smokers had run out and I would regularly go out to the smoking area (it was a school and state law prohibits smoking on school property) and let people "bum one from me".  These were the people who were first to volunteer to help prepare MRE's for the shelter clients, they kept the bathrooms clean, and helped out with the medical needs of those in the shelter.  After a week, these were my "go-to" people for anything needing to be done.....  Yes, I was politically incorrect, broke a few rules along the way, did some "illegal" things, but in the long run, everything turned out okay and everyone eventually was safely returned back to their homes.  "Help other people at all times."  And by the way.... I don't smoke.

 

If I worried about what other people thought about my helping others, I wouldn't get anything done.....ever.

[CalicoPenn]

I would have some objections as well - and not because it's Chic-fil-A.

 

Objection 1:  I do not believe that Scouts should get service hours for flag ceremonies held for the public.  Ever.  The BSA is partly a patriotic organization - Scouts should be performing flag ceremonies because it honors our country - not because it's one more hour towards rank.

 

Objection 2:  I do not believe that Scouts should be doing flag ceremonies for businesses - any business - unless it's perhaps part of an annual employee retreat or annual stockholder meetings - then I'm fine with it because it's a private ceremony - akin to the Scouts doing a flag ceremony at the start of a Lions Club, Rotary, Kiwanis, American Legion (you get the picture) meeting.  When a business like a fast food restaurant is doing a flag ceremony on a day like Veteran's Day, I immediately question why that business is doing so - and my first conclusion is usually that they're doing it for crass commercial reasons while claiming they're doing it to "honor veterans".  Want to honor veterans?  Give them good jobs, give them free food, donate the days profits to veterans organizations, adopt a veteran going through rehabilitation.   

 

Objection 3:  Just because something is not specifically prohibited doesn't mean it's a good idea.  If a business allows you to sell popcorn at their store, a unit doesn't owe them anything but a big thank you - give them a certificate, make cobbler for the employees - there are ways to thank companies without appearing to endorse them.  Sure, flag ceremonies for a business isn't prohibited, but you have to consider how it looks to the public - perhaps especially if that flag ceremony is the only time they see you in the community.  Sure, there is the social issues that haunt Chic-fil-A and that will be in some people's minds - but every company has some baggage with some people.  Just using fast food - McDonalds?  Fights for fair wages and treatment of animals.  Burger King?  Still a lot of people upset with them for moving their corporate offices to Canada for tax purposes.  Wendy's?  People that don't like redheads.  It just looks bad.  Not only that but what happens if some locally owned non-franchise restaurant who always kicks in a couple hundred bucks to FOS every year through the work of the DE sees Boy Scouts doing a flag ceremony at a competitor?  How quickly do you think he's going to open his wallet next time around if he thinks the Scouts are favoring someone eleses business over his?

 

On the surface it may seem just fine but think a little deeper and you might find out just how tricky the situation may be.  Now in your case, maybe the ojections were over the fact that it was a Chic-fil-A asking for it, but it seems to me based on what you've written is that the answers evolved - and led to the answer that we don't do this for businesses - I think that's a fine conclusion - if you won't do it for one, you won't do it for anyone else - and this might be the first time it's ever come up.