Would your scouts ask an adult to show ID at accident scene?

[CalicoPenn]

The only ID needed is a statement I have first aid training.  Most EMTs are Certified, not licensed.  Semantics, I understand but it it is a legal difference.   I have been a certified EMT in two states, taken an EMT training course three times.  Let my certification lapse so had to go thru course again to get certified.  I have certificates that hang on the wall but don't remember ever having a wallet card.  

 

Just like in any other field, those with actual knowledge can usually very quickly identify someone who is not knowledgeable.  Whats to say the bystanders should believe a Scout has adequate training? 

 

That may differ from state to state - in Illinois, EMTs are licensed - there is a state-specific exam in Illinois to be licensed and you have to be licensed by the state in order to be paid for being an EMT.  Though the state does not require EMTs to pass the National Registry exam to become a registered EMT, the vast majority of EMTs in the state are also registered EMTs because its pretty universal in the state that the courses use the National Registry exams as the course final exam.  It is possible that you can become a licensed EMT in Illinois without taking the National Registry exam since Illinois doesn't require it, but they do require someone to disclose if they've taken the National Registry exam and failed it.

[Eagle94-A1]

David,

 

Yep - that does sometimes happen - but it's rare enough to be newsworthy - that says far more about the lifeguards lack of common decency than anything else.

 

Actually depending upon where the lifeguard is, it may be policy not to make a rescue. A few years back, there was a drowning somewhere on the East coast in which someone was swimming in a no swim area, that was close enough to a lifeguard station, that the guard heard the person, and made the rescue. The lifeguard was later fired for abandoning their station to make the rescue.

[jwest09]

Hello fellow scouters!  I'm speaking here as a paramedic of 20+ years.  I've worked in a variety of settings, mainly on an ambulance in urban environments.  I love my job, and credit my involvement in Scouting as a youth with introducing me to this field.

 

However, I'm continually amazed that the combination of first aid with the BSA always seems to produce armchair lawyers who waaaayyyyy overthink and overcomplicate matters when it comes to rendering the first aid skills which we teach our youngsters.  I apologize for my bluntness, but as a long-time paramedic and educator, its become something of a pet peeve to me... but there is a ton of misinformation presented in this thread, and its actually harmful to mislead people in this way.

 

I could call out each misunderstanding and fallacy communicated here pertaining to Good Samaritan laws, duty to act (or lack thereof), certification vs licensure, "highest level of care," etc etc etc.  I'm not going to, unless anyone wants me to.  I will reiterate the points which I try to hammer home each time I teach first aid:

 

1. Above all, keep yourself safe.  Traffic accidents are notoriously dangerous, and sadly, each year they claim the lives of professional police, fire and EMS personnel.  And we theoretically have training on how to keep ourselves safe, and ample resources to do so.  I've personally responded to a few hundred car accidents at this point - they are easily the most dangerous part of my job, and I've had my own close calls.  I've had close friends be injured and killed in the line of duty because they were struck by a car while working a traffic accident.  Please, please, please, do not put your self at risk.  Do not train your Scouts to put themselves at risk.  Don't worry about all the legal mumbo-jumbo you don't understand in the first place - if nothing else, please remember to keep yourself safe above all other considerations - even if that means driving away from the scene.

 

2. Do Your Best to provide first aid that you've been trained for.  Don't worry about being sued - seriously, this is quite possibly the absolute most idiotic thing to worry about.  Go ahead a use Google or Lexus Nexus or any other search engine to try to find a case where a Good Samaritan was taken to court for rendering basic first aid at an accident scene.  You won't find any.  So chill out - stop worry about imaginary legal boogeyman, and stop making other worry about these imaginary fantasies!  Its irresponsible to continue to spread these myths.  We train people - youth and adults - to provide basic first aid because it helps people.  So go help people!  I can assure you, as long as you are acting in good faith, using common sense, and not exceeding what you've been trained to do, you are in no legal risk.  If you disagree with me, please provide concrete references - cite actual laws or actual cases which support your position.  Otherwise, please accept that the BSA does not train 10 year olds to perform skills which, if used, could land them in jail.  Because that's just hairbrained and I know that you are all smart enough to see through that, if you stop to think about it.

 

3. Once a professional responder - be it an EMT, police officer, firefighter, etc - arrives on scene, follow their direction.  Their #1 job is similar to your #1 job - safety!  They need to keep themselves safe, keep you safe, keep other bystanders safe, and finally need to treat any patients on scene.  They will do whatever they need to do to accomplish that.  Now, most of us have been at this a while, and when we see a Good Samaritan on scene, we will treat you respectfully, and manage the situation positively if you don't immediately take our direction.  But, believe me, we will not allow you, ourselves, bystanders, or patients to be placed in any risk, and if that means you need to be removed from the scene, it will happen.  Let me address another legal myth that's been presented here - your BSA or Red Cross first aid training does not put you in some kind of legal situation which means that you need to remain with the patient until you're satisfied that a higher level of care has arrived.  Even if you are an off-duty EMT, you are not in any kind of legal situation which requires you to remain with a patient if a police officer orders you away.  Again, most of us professional responders will continue to accept your help assuming you are not putting anyone in danger - but still, please do not obstruct any of us from doing our job.  I hate to see when a good guy who's trying to help, but decided to also try to be an amateur lawyer gets put in the back of squad car for interfering with police/fire/EMS on a scene - but I'd rather see that than see anyone get hurt.  So please, do not put yourself in a position where you're trying to be helpful, but are in fact making my job more difficult and less safe - for you and for me!

 

Regarding the original question that prompted this thread - no, you should not ask someone for ID on an accident scene.  Your first aid training carries absolutely no legal status - you're a good guy trying to help someone in need, and so is whoever else is showing up.  Please don't train your Scouts to waste time trying to ID people who are likely more experienced.

 

For those of us who do this every day, its largely a non-issue. I've personally worked thousands of individual 911 calls, hundreds of car accidents. I've worked with bystanders who are doctors, nurses, congressmen, fire chiefs, teachers, EMTs and even Boy Scouts.  I've run calls with bystanders and patients who have been drunk, high, hallucinating, armed, combative and just plain old big and scary.  If a couple of 11 year olds asked me for ID, 1) I wouldn't show it because I don't carry it with me, nor do I need to, and 2) would handle the situation in a way that the young men would feel proud of themselves for rendering aid to someone in need, and would allow me and other more experienced providers to render aid as well.  I think this is true of anyone with even a little experience as a professional responder.

 

So, long story short, keep it simple.  Don't worry about legal mumbo jumbo, 95% of it is made up BS anyway.  Focus on your own safety, on rendering care up to your level of training, and being supportive of the professional responders when they arrive on scene.  I don't know what it is about the BSA that makes people so prone to overcomplicating this and making up laws designed to ensure that you're thrown in jail for the rest of your life - but that's not how it works, and you should worry about that, and you shouldn't deceive others into worrying about that.

[krypton_son]

jwest09, I couldn't have said it better.