Flag protocols - what to do with Den/Patrol flags

[The Latin Scot]

Hey fellow scouters! I have a question that has been vexing me all night, and I need some help gathering information so I can gain a clearer understanding of BSA guidelines regarding flag ceremonies.

 

As I have related in other threads, I have worked hard to save my struggling Cub Pack by encouraging them to build Den identity and unity amongst the boys. In my own Den, the boys have worked really hard to create a wonderful Den flag, and they are proud of it, as am I. They rally to it, they care for it, and they really do see it as a symbol of their achievements and successes.

 

For the past few months, the flag has been displayed at our pack meetings, always with proper respect to our nation's flag being held paramount, and I stress over and over the proper treatment of the American flag during the flag ceremonies. Our flag is displayed to the audience's left as it should be, and it is kept on a pole that is intentionally quite a bit shorter than that of the U.S. ensign. But despite this, I was recently asked not to have our flag displayed, as it would be "disrespectful" to the American flag, and that it should only be used in our private den meetings. 

 

Next month we are in charge of the flag ceremony, and my Webelos have been working extra hard to master their steps so that the flags cross in front of the audience, American flag passing in front (of course) and then being posted to the audience's left, or the flag's own right, as per official protocol. But now I have another den leader feeling that it is inappropriate for our den flag to be a part of that ceremony. I am willing to change my plans if it means following official protocol, and I am willing to change my views with sufficient evidence, but I thought it was perfectly appropriate to include the den flag as long as we followed the correct procedures during the ceremony itself. I was even told by one leader that since we are a den, and not a patrol, we could not consider the den flag being used.

 

I don't think a single parent in our audience will notice if it's right or wrong since frankly, having a flag ceremony done correctly in the first place will be a new experience for them. But it's important to me to do it right so that my boys learn correct procedures now before they become Boy Scouts. Can anybody help me find the official BSA stance on den/patrol flags being used in flag ceremonies? Can I include ours with a clear conscience, or should I quickly correct our course before we unwittingly break U.S. code? Thanks.

[5yearscouter]

I think they need to read up on den flags in the Den Leader handbooks.  I don't have my old cub scout leader guides, pow wow books, cub scout ceremonies book, but I recall there are lots of protocols for flag ceremonies done with den flags along with the pack and American flag.  Our pack often had scouts from each den come up to present their den flag at the big cub scout events of the year like blue and gold.  As long as the American Flag and state flag take precedent, Pack flag next, then rank flags are certainly ok to present as well.  That may be more Pack tradition than actual Flag protocol.  We took it that any time the boys could get up on stage and do something cool in front of everyone, it helped them to grow and thrive and be proud of being a cub scout.

[qwazse]

As far as our nation's code, the Senate is here for you: http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

You mentioned the den flag. Where is the pack flag?

 

As far as some unwritten "unit code": patrol flags usually move with the patrol leader. So, if they get posted anywhere, it would be where the boys seat themselves (on an outside aisle, so as not to obstruct the audience's view).

 

But there should be no disrespect however you do it (e.g posted adjacent to the pack flag), as long as the other den flags are treated equally. For example, a couple of weeks ago, when the W2's visited, the patrol flags were displayed along the wall behind the US and national flags.

Edited October 10, 2016 by qwazse

[NJCubScouter]

If you go to this page,

 

https://cubscouts.org/library/den-flags/

 

you will find this:

 

"The flag should be brought to each pack meeting and mark the place where the den sits."

 

That is an official BSA site, so I think there's your answer right there.

 

I see no reason why there would be a difference between patrol flags and den flags anyway.  Clearly patrol flags can be brought to a troop meeting and you shouldn't need an official BSA web site to prove that den flags are treated the same.  But now you have one.  Obviously the rules of precedence for the U.S. flag must be observed when other flags are around.

[NJCubScouter]

By the way, the page I linked-to above does not say anything about the den flag being part of a flag ceremony at the beginning of a pack meeting.  It says the flag should be brought to the pack meeting and should (my words) sit with the den.  I personally don't see anything wrong with it being part of the flag ceremony, but if someone is objecting to maybe a compromise is in order.  In our troop, the American flag and troop flag are brought to the "front" as part of the opening ceremonies, but the patrol flags just sit there, in their stands, next to each patrol.

 

(After re-reading the other posts, and thinking about it some more, since it is a pack meeting, it probably should be the pack flag and not a den flag that is involved in the movement of flags during the opening ceremony.)

Edited October 10, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[MattR]

.... Our flag is displayed to the audience's left as it should be.

 

The US flag always goes on the right, but in the case where there's both an audience and a speaker it's the speaker's right. That would be the audience's left.

 

As others have said, the den flags would look better with the dens. But, if you don't have a pack flag it might be nice to have all the den flags in it's place.

[The Latin Scot]

Thanks MattR, I suppose I should have noted that yes, at our pack meetings we always have an audience AND a speaker, so it always goes on the left - at our meetings. Thanks for noting that important clause. And thanks to everybody; I knew I would get the help I needed here!

 

Quazse, you asked where our pack flag was. Funny thing is, I have asked that since I was made the Webelos leader almost a year ago. It seems the closest thing we have is a flag more than 20 years old that has our correct pack number on it, but bears a name for our chartered organization that was actually dropped around that same time when our organizations boundaries changed. So until I can convince the committee to spend the money on a new one, all we have is the U.S. Flag and our den flag. 

 

I love the idea of all the dens coming up with their flags too ... but again, mine is the only den that has one so far. We only just found somebody to be a Wolves leader and a Bears leader, and there is a lot of catching up for them to do. I doubt den flags are even on their radar yet since they still haven't even bought their uniforms yet. As for the other pack that we do our pack meetings with (our numbers are small so we combine with them for all pack events), they don't have any flags whatsoever, and don't seem to want any either (it was a leader from that pack that asked me not to do it).

 

SO, I think I will bring my den flag up with the national flag, but have it then sit with the boys in the audience for the duration of the meeting. That way they still have their flag on display but no parents or leaders will feel bothered by it. Since all the boys in my den are receiving the Arrow of Light at this meeting, I want to make sure their den's emblem is made as prominent as I can. 

[blw2]

our pack and troop has always done one version or another of a marching ceremony script, where the color guard marches the unit and US flags forward, crosses, and posts the 'colors'

Then

They always cross and return!  ugh!

it drives me nuts that they don't get the whole deal about the US flag always being to it's own right

 

At the den level, starting around bear I think, we really focused hard on practicing it

Then as CM I made several attempts at really teaching this concept at the pack meetings.

The scouts I find really don't seem to care, and maybe even more so they are just confused by the whole script thing

and I see this carried up to the troop.

I think a few of the scouts kindof almost get it, but they of course falter when the older scouts direct them to do it the right way.

 

Anyway, we never did den flags, except in the den meetings, and then it took the place of the pack flag in the posting ceremony.

I always imaged though, that in a pack meeting the den flags would be posted at the den tables during pack meetings.