Camoflage

[Bob White]

Flyingember,

 

A few questions.

 

1. What is the purpose of camouflage apparel?

 

2. How does that purpose enhance a scouting activity.

 

3. What piece of camp apparel cannot be purchased without the camo patterns, at a lower cost?

 

 

Allow me to try and see if I am close.

 

1. Camoflage is used for hunting to hide the hunter from his prey. For military purposes to hide from the enemy. To mimic military dress.

 

2. Since we do not hunt. Have no need to hide from enemies and are not a military organization, it offers no enhancement to the program. In fact it deters by confusing our identity and giving the false impression that we a military program.

 

3. Camo actually adds cost to any piece of clothing, and except for some sources of military surplus (which offers old and often inferior materials) is often as costly or more costly than current clothing available through a variety of retail sources without a camo pattern.

 

How did I do?

 

[Eamonn]

Darn it!

Now that I can't wear my camo. Her That Must Be Obeyed will be able to find me. - Shucks.

Eamonn.

[Fat Old Guy]

"3. Camo actually adds cost to any piece of clothing,"

 

Huh? It is no more expensive to print camo on a piece of fabric than it is to print plaid.

 

"and except for some sources of military surplus (which offers old and often inferior materials) is often as costly or more costly than current clothing available through a variety of retail sources without a camo

pattern."

 

Huh (again)? Military surplus = inferior? Maybe if you buy a pair of pants that survived the jungles of Vietnam. Most American mil-surp clothing is contract overruns. Even if you buy used foreign mil-surp, it is usually in good shape because it was issued, worn by one person and then turned in when that person left the service.

 

I can buy new mil-spec BDU pants all day long for less than what a pair of Scout pants costs.

 

Not that I'm a big fan of camo but you really do need to get your facts straight, Bobo Blanco (not that you'll ever see this).

 

[SebCachia]

I dont know about you folks in the US but here in malta we love night games. Camo is great when running and hiding n the dark. Also due to weight restrictions we cant have an infinate amount of pants including a set of clothes for nightgames so we tend to wear them all day long. (n.b. Mud looks far better on a woodland camo pants then it does on a shiny new pair of expensive outdoor company pants)

[Fat Old Guy]

I think that we like night games as well. Back in the early '70s, the military fell out of favor in the US so BSA started going out of its way to downplay any hint of military. For example, it is now prohibited for Scouts to participate in close order drill (marching).

[LovetoCamp]

But you can practice, practice, practice your flag ceremonies and color guard work.

[Blaze66]

We too live close to a military base so military issue clothing and gear is very abundant. We also have a number of scouts who's parents are in the military. We are very lax on our enforcement of uniforming policies. For a number of reasons. First of all a scout uniform is VERY expensive. As everyone knows a full uniform with all the accessories is well over $100. I have some parents that won't let their scout wear their uniform to anything but scout meetings and special events because they are afraid they will mess it up. So we don't push the policy that strictly. Most of the time we say if you have your shirt on your good to go. Something else that discourages us from wearing full uniforms to everyting is the pants are not comfortable at all! We backpack and those pants just don't give you the full range of montion you need for some activities. We have been able to find some pants at a military surplus that are the basic 6 pocket pants like camos but are OD Green and wear a whole lot better than the BSA pants and cost about 1/4th the price. Maybe BSA should go to some of the military contractors and get better deals on clothing.

[Bob White]

I think the BSA is far more concerned about avoiding the implication that we are a military organization then having the ability to play night games or have neat pants. Lots of kids play games without the need to dress as hunters or soldiers, why can't some scouts and scout leaders?

[Bob White]

"First of all a scout uniform is VERY expensive."

 

Who said you had to buy all or any of it new?

 

"I have some parents that won't let their scout wear their uniform to anything but scout meetings and special events because they are afraid they will mess it up."

 

They are correct to do so. The field Uniform is for troop meetings and special occasions, according to the scout handbook and scout leader training.

 

"Most of the time we say if you have your shirt on your good to go."

 

You do not have that authority. The uniform is a trade mark of the BSA and only the BSA can determine what constitutes a uniform.

 

"Something else that discourages us from wearing full uniforms to everyting is the pants are not comfortable at all! We backpack and those pants just don't give you the full range of montion you need for some activities."

 

The uniform is not made for backpacking, water skiing, caving, as well as most other activities. It is for meetings ad special occassions. There are plenty of other apparel made for adventure besides camo.

 

"Maybe BSA should go to some of the military contractors and get better deals on clothing."

 

How do you know that they don't?

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

Blaze complained, "First of all a scout uniform is VERY expensive. As everyone knows a full uniform with all the accessories is well over $100."

 

In a country where people are willing to spend $150 for an NFL jacket that is a feeble excuse. I live in an area with a lot of enlisted personnel and they live pretty well, driving new SUVs and living in $250,000 houses, so don't give me the money cry.

 

If money is tight, there are plenty of sources for experienced uniforms. I've bought shirts on ebay for as low as $15 and pants as low as $10, including shipping. If you are trying to outfit a troop, there are people who are selling entire lots of shirts that wind up going for less than $10 a shirt.

 

Although I can't find Scout pants to fit me, I find the cry for "easy fit" pants to be somewhat amusing. Think back 30 years when everyone wore pants that fit. We wore jeans that shrunk to fit but had no problem moving in them. It is all what you get used to.

 

Bobo Blanco blathered, "The uniform is not made for backpacking, water skiing, caving, as well as most other activities"

 

First, I found this comment in the 10th edition of the Handbook, "Scouts involved in conservation projects may wear work pants or jeans with their Scout shirts." So alternate pants are approved.

 

In the same book it says, "Wear your complete uniform proudly and correctly at all Scouting events: at patrol and troop meeting, hikes, camps and rallies; . . . and in the backcountry.

 

Green Bar Bill said in the 9th edition of the handbook, ". . .its color and design make the Scout uniform the ideal clothing of the outdoorsman."

 

All of this sounds like BSA thinks that the uniform is good for camping and hiking.

[OldGreyEagle]

I think for the most part Camo "themed" clothing is perfect for camping. Its usually rugged, durable and it tends to go on sale after hunting season. Whether its military green/brown/black camo or the hunters "real tree" camo its just outdoor clothing. I dont see it meaning anything else.

 

I agree camo doest have a place with the uniform, but for outdoor activities where the field uniform is inappropriate, I see no problem with camo, as long as its not intended to mimic a military uniform.

[LovetoCamp]

My favorite color is Blaze Orange, cause where I live, "If it's brown, it's down".

 

Someone driving a brown car might come home with an arrow in the radiator.

[packsaddle]

I have to side with Bob White on this. There are good reasons to wear the uniform in an organization that has a uniform. I don't understand why anyone would choose to 'disguise' themselves as anything else while engaged in a scouting activity and the uniform is proper and available. Aside from safety concerns (and I share those as well) the uniform makes us quickly recognizable and while in the uniform we and BSA are clearly linked. It ought to be a source of pride.

 

That said, the comments about night games were somewhat confusing to me. Night games....dark....unable to see...DuH! Unless the countryside is blazing with flares or flashlights, most anything should work in darkness.

[KoreaScouter]

Troops may design their own neckerchiefs, and many do. Hence, you could design a neckerchief in a camo pattern, or with smiley faces, or with Bart Simpson emblazoned on the back...no matter how atrocious any of those would look with the uniform.

 

KS

[Bob White]

While I do not disagree with what OGE said, my concern is related only to its use in scouting. I believe, and BSA seems to share the same concern, that the sight of scouts in camouflage sends a confusing image message to the general public that encounters us. Why, if we do not hunt and we are not trying to seclude ourselves from enemy forces, are we dressed in clothing specifically designed for those purposes?

 

There are plenty of other clothing options wil function just as well in outdoor activities that do not have a camo pattern and all can be found on sale at some point in time each year.