Advancement Question

[Ranman328]

So, I am the Arrow of Light Den Leader now since my resignation as Cubmaster several months ago. I have 12 Scouts. I know, way too many but the families are great and pitch in. 10 people in my Den Serve in Leadership positions in the Pack. Here is my problem. Eight of the Scouts in my Den went to Resident camp. I was not able to attend as I was working the Presidential Conventions and not able to take off. I had many complaints from the parents that attended. It appears the camp was run by immature Boy Scouts mainly concerned about their phones (not sure why they had them there anyway) and what music they were going to play next and not teaching the scouts the Resident Program. I received information regarding their accomplishments at Resident Camp. One of our Assistant Cubmasters put a bunch of awards in based on this camp information. I didn't have a problem with it until my first Den(actually it is a Patrol) meeting. I started going over some of the things they did at camp and wanted them to help with the Scouts that did not attend camp. I find out they didn't do or couldn't do half of the requirements of the Camper Adventure. They didn't know what a bow line knot was. Couldn't tie a two half hitch or a taut line hitch knot. Didn't know what whipping or fusing a rope was. Couldn't recite the leave no trace guidelines and many other things. Keep in mind, they have already been put in for these awards. I know the new program is "Do your Best" but I don't think I would be doing them any good just letting it slide. I am suppose to be preparing these boys for Boy Scouts in 5 months. I am taking them to visit several Troops soon and I don't want them to embarrass themselves or me. I have sent an email to my Pack Committee with my concerns. My point of view is that just because they went to camp doesn't mean they accomplished all the items on this list that the Camp Director put out. If the handbook says recite the outdoor code and leave no trace principles from memory and a scout doesn't know what I am talking about and still doesn't know with a little help, he should not get credit. If it says tie a certain knot and they don't know what I am talking about, they shouldn't get credit. I had a make up meeting for the boys that did not attend camp and three of those four are farther ahead than all the eight that went to camp. Any suggestions?

[qwazse]

First, thanks for your service to the boys and being willing to wear a new hat (even if your parents make it easy to do so).

 

I'm with you. If there's no recall from any of the boys, then that's a good indication that the skills were not taught in the first place.

 

As Cubmaster, you definitely have the right to call the camp director and let him/her know that your Webelos were not served by his or her program. Make it clear that you are looking for a camp that teaches boys skills and does you no favors in advancement tracking. You can train parents or den chiefs on box-checking.

 

As den leader, you are in charge of advancement. The ACM should have ordered awards based on your request and no one else's. You should order awards based on what you or reliable parents signed off in the boys' books. Welcome to Boy Scouts. If there is no signature in a scout's book the scout doesn't get the award ... Even if your convention's nominee says you should order it.

 

We're the boys told they'd be getting the award?

[Ranman328]

To my knowledge, no scout has been told they are getting the award. Our Pack just started using a new software system (Troop Track) and I don't think the parents and most leaders for that matter know how to use it's done see what the scouts have earned.

 

I very much have enjoyed my time in Scouting especially seeing these boys grow and learn. Good point about Boy Scouting and the signed handbooks. That is one thing I have stressed is that we will be running the Den as a Patrol in the Boy Scouts to get them ready.

 

Our ACM is a little headstrong. He is a tech guy and is running the new software system. He thinks he is in charge of who gets what privileges. He doesn't want to give our Committee Chair full rights to the website and is the one that is suppose to administer the Program. Our CC was the person that took the applications and ensured they were complete, signed and taken to District as well as putting them into our system.

[qwazse]

... Our ACM is a little headstrong. He is a tech guy and is running the new software system. He thinks he is in charge of who gets what privileges. ...

 

Yeah, there are a lot of tech "believers". They see something work in one arena and push for it in another. What the poor souls don't realize is that in doing so, they make themselves everybody's secretary if they lack buy-in from everyone.

 

That's fine. You're just a humble den leader now. Let him know that the data in his system is currently bogus, and you won't rely on it until it speaks truth. It's on him to figure out how to make sure that happens. For now, truth lies in hardcopy you give to your CC.

 

What really matters is what the boys think. And they seem to know that they haven't even really tried to master some skills yet. That's a good place to be. It's not like anyone told them they were deserving of some award, and they can catch up by learning with their buddies.

 

Finally, never worry about the boys being "embarassed" while visiting another troop. Most scouts were Webelos once, and they all probably remember forgetting a thing or two that was taught them. The thing that the resident campers will have gained, is they know a few older scouts, and if they are in a troop you visit, they'll recognize them right quick.

[meyerc13]

Webelos is all about preparing a boy for Boy Scouts, and as such I think it is appropriate for a Den Leader to verify that a requirement was completed before signing off on the requirement in the boy's handbook.  All of the things that you mention are things that they will need to know for Boy Scout advancement, so you'll need to work on them with the den until everyone knows them well enough to demonstrate to their future Scoutmaster, Patrol Leader, or Troop Guide.

 

It's better they learn this lesson now, rather than later.  My son went to his Scoutmaster and told him he had completed the requirement regarding the Outdoor Code.  The Scoutmaster asked him to recite it, and my son couldn't.  The Scoutmaster told him to come back when he could.

 

There's also a lesson here for all Scout leaders - don't believe everything that comes back on the cards from summer camp.  While the curriculum that was planned may have covered all of the things that were on the list, the curriculum as delivered clearly did not.  Unless I witnessed it, I have always asked my son or another Cub Scout what they learned/did at camp.  If they tell me they didn't do something, then I know it is something I need to cover in a den meeting. 

 

The perfect example of this is Whittling Chip.  I have yet to see a Cub Scout resident camp be as thorough on this topic as I am.  How to open, close, hold, and use a knife properly are things that must be learned, and signing off on those requirements when the boys haven't retained the information is dangerous.  I've tested plenty of boys who went through Whittling Chip courses at summer camp only to watch as they close their pocket knives in such a way that they're likely to cut off a chunk of their fingers eventually.

[Ranman328]

I completely agree and thank you for reinforcing my belief in it is better to learn than earn. So many leaders want to walk away with bling and I want to walk away knowing these boys might remember something and use it in life. Unfortunately it appears I have angered the ACM and his Treasurer wife(their son is I'm my Den) by saying the boys did not earn the Adventure. Their son by the way was running around at our first patrol meeting trying to look the information up in his handbook and in tears because he didn't know it. I reassured him that it isn't a failure on his part but a measuring stick for me as a leader to see what we need to work on. Anyway, I asked our CC, COR and CM for guidance on this issue. It appears it was discussed at our Committee meeting last night. I was not able to attend as it was my 18th wedding Anniversary and I was not going to miss another one as I have missed the last eight doing scout stuff. Also was told by the treasurer last month that since I resigned as CM and no longer a voting member of the Committee that my input was no longer needed. Mind you I have only been doing this 10 years and don't claim to know everything but my wife is the next person with the most experience with 5 years. Most everyone else only has one to three years in scouting and only taken online courses. I was asked to help the new people get up to date on running the new year. Anyway, it was discussed and decided that any and all requirements on the Camp list are considered as accomplished as the Camp Director has final authority. Not sure what that means but I guess I am suppose to sign off on the award cards even though the boys don't know it. Should be an interesting rest of the year to say the least

[qwazse]

I'm sorry things are panning out this way.

The camp director is not registers as your unit's Webelos den leader. Giving him/her a call is still a good idea.

You don't need to sign anything that you believe to be untrue. In fact you mustn't (first point of the scout law).

You certainly are under no obligation to award anything while you are den leader.

Of course, digging your heels in might mean you're not DL for long. But if the boys aren't picking up these skills, you might rather move on.

 

Your best strategy, however, is to get the boys up to speed. That's what everyone wants in the end.

 

P.S. Happy anniversary!

[gumbymaster]

At the Day camps and resident camps in our area; the summer camp staff decidedly does NOT certify completion of the requirement or sign off in the book.  They will provide unit leaders a listing of what was worked on, but as they do not even perform an attendance of who was at each session, they could not know which scouts did or did not complete the requirements.

 

That said, our pack has pretty good adult representation at these events and follows along with the Scouts, so they usually do have a good idea of which Scouts actually did and completed which requirements.  Often, the Den leader(s) are part of this group, making it even easier.

 

You could, as a matter of principal, refuse to sign off on these requirements and make other leaders or parents do it; but that will create bad feelings (for which it may already be too late) and make the scouts aware of the adult drama (to be avoided if possible).

Cub Scouts are a "do your best" environment, if the scouts participated in the activity, they may well have done their best, even without retention of the skill(s).

 

There is nothing that would stop you, as the den leader, from going over these skills again as a den (after all, did every scout in your den go and do this?).  This would allow you to re-teach, and reinforce the skills for all the den members.  In the end, you may then feel that the award was earned by the boys - regardless of when it was presented.

 

- Good luck

[Stosh]

My boys did the first year program at summer camp.  The Totin' Chit was taught and given to the boys.  The boys were not satisfied with it so next week they have asked me to re-do the training so they have the proper information and training.  The boys know when they have been short shafted on the training by ineffective teachers. 

 

There's nothing in the books that say skills can't be retaught on a regular basis.  As a matter of fact, our swim tests are valid for only one year.  Same holds true for the Totin' Chit.  Just because they have FC rank (having passed the swimmer's test), does not mean they automatically jump in the canoe and head down the river.

[Ranman328]

Very good points. That's why I love coming here. Taking eight of the 12 to a Boy Scout Campout this weekend. Guess what, they are going over the Camper Adventure. How great is that. Not to toot my own horn but these boys have been with me since their Tiger and Wolf years and none have left. I must be doing something right. I do expect a great deal from them as I go to the award ceremonies a the school and all but one are in the gifted program and on the honor roll. Sometimes they get lazy and do the minimum. I do try to catch them time to time and they get me instead. Too bad we can't take the silly parent factor out of it.