Struggling to stay in Scouts

[qwazse]

Technically mine crossed in 4th grade, May. This year he is a full Boy Scout in 5th grade....

I'm not sure why everyone is still missing this, but the boy was simply too young to enjoy most of this troop's activities.

He was at least a year younger than every boy mentioned in every anecdote about young scouts adapting to the troop.

Every scout who I've met who crossed over this young eventually took a substantial break from the program. So, @@Phrogger is making that break early gently rather than later roughly. Sounds as good an idea as any.

 

Also (and this is not faulting his folks, they didn't know better), he was being pushed at home to do advancement. In our troop we ASM's don't start nudging kids to move up the next rank until after they come back from summer camp. IMHO, no parent should ever push any scout (boy or girl) to advance at all. Make sure the scout has the gear he/she needs? Yes. Try an activity that he/she has learned? Yes. Help them fund-raise? Sure. Teach them to sew on their own patches? Definitely. Keep them organized and help them fill out their own med form? Good idea. Let the SM know if there's a problem? Yep. Pressure/nag/or sometimes even politely ask about advancement? Not a parent's job description.

 

Now, once their 17 and Life and say they could use a little nudge, things change a little. But that's because by then a boy should have learned that parents are his partners, not his boss.

[Hedgehog]

Technically mine crossed in 4th grade, May. This year he is a full Boy Scout in 5th grade. I'm encouraged by your son's success story. But did he like Scouts? Did he ask to quit? That's my scenario right now. I'm trying to gauge how hard to push. Scouting just doesn't seem fun for him anymore. I understand the value of the program. But if the boy isn't having fun, where is the motivation to stay?

 

 

Grade level does matter.  I can see a huge difference between even 10th and 11th graders.

 

My son did like scouts, because it was a chance to hang out with his buddies.  Six guys from his Cub Scout Den crossed over with him.  His best friend was there with him and that made a huge difference (they are still best friends, still go on the same campouts and both were founders of our Venturing Crew).  

 

Ask your son what he likes about scouting and what he doesn't like.  My impression was that he felt excluded from the Troop because of the outings.  If that is the case, talk to the Scoutmaster and offer to help plan outings that the whole Troop can enjoy.  I find that Troops need a variety of Assistant Scoutmasters, including one who worries about the transition for the new scouts.  Many Troops are so focused on the older scouts, they forget the younger ones.

 

There was a moment of change in our troop around 10 years ago.  The older scouts remembered what it was like to be the new scout, to be ordered around, to be sent to camp in the other side of the campsite away from the older boys  The boys decided to change the culture and have mixed-age patrols where the older guys looked out for and mentored the younger guys.  The troop has tripled in size since then.  If you son does stick with it, maybe one day he will be the one to change the troop.

 

Good luck.

[minn]

If a boy has a friend in a troop, he likely joins to have fun with his friend, no?

 

 

Alternatively, in some cases, boys may choose a troop to leave some of the personalities of their old den behind.  I definitely see both possibilities.

[TAHAWK]

One can seek new or additional friends?

[Phrogger]

Here we are a few months later. Recap: my son crossed over a year early and this is his 5th grade year. Although he's been in scouts since Wolf he's struggled to adjust to the changes from Cubs to Scouts.  He isn't very athletic and has trouble doing many of the outdoor activities that the troop does. I've not made him do any of the overnight camping since he doesn't want to do it, and I'm afraid of turning him off of scouts permanently. In addition, he has no idea how to set up a tent or what gear to pack or how to do any of the camping basics and I don't know who is supposed to be in charge of teaching that. He says the older kids don't treat him well, and although he socializes with a few of the kids he doesn't really like them. Recently at a Camporee he complained that none of the kids were showing him how to do things, and additionally they ran out of food and he only got one taco for dinner. He fights him every time I tell him to get ready for a meeting. I'm becoming tired of just making him go through the motions. Here's my next dilemma: I've already paid the $300 for summer camp (we had to put the deposit down months ago). Should I bite the bullet and let him quit now, or send him to camp and "hope" he has a good experience? Should I try a different troop where he doesn't know anybody? I just don't see this lasting unless he finds appeal in at least one activity, or makes some friends somehow.

[qwazse]

Thanks for the update. Even if it's a little rough.

 

If he doesn't have any friends among this year's cross-overs, I would suggest a new troop. Maybe one who goes to the same camp, but later in the summer. But it sounds like your boy may have a bad case of wherever-you-go-there-you-are. So there's no guarantee you'll recoup that $300. Just make sure he pays you back if he bails.

 

You might need to work with him father-son style to enjoy the camping stuff. Ask him, "Do you really want to learn to pitch the troop tents? Ask the QM if you can check one out, and you and I will learn together this weekend."

 

Likewise with the food thing. "Would you like to be better prepared the next time you get a smaller plate? What dried snacks would you like to pack as a 'plan b'? Maybe we could try some different kinds of noodles or jerky together."

 

"Which scout do you like the most (hate the least)? Maybe we can invite him to come fishing/to a movie with us."

 

And down the list of 1st class skills you go. Teach him how to crack open that handbook, do what it says, and see how it works out.

 

This may sound like breaking the patrol method. But right now, his real patrol is his family. Give him some practice leading there and see where you wind up.

[TAHAWK]

It is harder than is has to be if Scouting methods are not being used.

 

The mixed-age patrol only works when the Patrol Leader has been trained properly that his job is to be sure all the members are having fun in the troop and in the patrol's separate activities.  As noted, "Servant Leadership" is a way to label the Patrol Leader looking out for the needs of of his patrol members first.  When I was a Scout, it was "Take care of your patrol."

 

Now if this troop used age-based patrols, there would be a patrol of Scouts whose Patrol Leader would represent the youngins' at the PLC when program is being planned for the troop and, more importantly, would lead them in planning their own patrol activities that suit their interests, like a hike in the woods.  In a mixed-age patrol, the Patrol Leader has the more complex job of insuring that everyone's needs are being considered where age spread creates more diverse interests and abilities.  But even in an age-based patrol, interests vary.

 

Phrogger, you haven't mentioned any separate patrol activities, yet the Scouts are supposed to spend most of their time functioning as a patrol.

 

"[Patrols are] small groups of Scouts who camp together, cook together, play together, and learn together."  "[The patrol members] interact in a small group outside the larger troop context, working together as a team and sharing the responsibility of making their patrol a success."

 

"Scouting happens in the context of a patrol."

 

"[The patrol is] the place where boys learn skills together [and] take on leadership responsibilities...."

 

"Patrols will sometimes join with other patrols to learn skills and complete advancement requirements."

 

And every single patrol member is supposed to be assigned a job that best suits his abilities and interests.  That's part of the Patrol Leader's responsibility So it's a team - everyone playing a "position."  He could perhaps be the geocaching coach for the patrol if he is really into that.  Or the Game Leader who researches new games that interest the patrol members - more challenging with a mixed-age patrol but not by any means impossible.

 

Who is responsible for training the Patrol Leaders?  Primarily that's the Scoutmaster's job, and it is his most important job after insuring that Scouting is a safe place.

 

Phrogger

[Col. Flagg]

Should I try a different troop where he doesn't know anybody? I just don't see this lasting unless he finds appeal in at least one activity, or makes some friends somehow.

 

Kids stay in Scout because they have fun and are with friends. If you are noting doing either, it makes it very tough. If the troop is not training him as a first year Scout, then that's no good either. 

 

Does he have any friends in other troops?

[Stosh]

@Phrogger

 

Although I get hassled on the forum for my stance on this, what you are describing with the mixed patrols is exactly why I don't like that process.  If a big activity is planned the new guys get left out instead of planning their own activities.  All the left over new guys sit around waiting for the big boys to go have fun.  Well, why are the new guys sitting around doing nothing when they can form their own patrol and go off and do their own thing at a level they are capable of?

 

Why don't troops do this?  I think it's because it is far more difficult to control by the adults.  For heaven's sake, one can't keep control of things if all the patrols are going in a hundred different directions all at once because that's what they decide to do???

 

Patrol activity?  New guys want to go for a hike, the middle aged group wants to go biking and the older boys want to backpack.  They all plan the same weekend!  SM goes with a parent to backpacking trek.  An ASM with another parent goes biking, and a second ASM with a parent goes on a hike.  3 registered adults.  Seriously, we aren't talking hurding cats here, there are 6-8 boys and if two adults and a PL can't handle that, there's something seriously wrong with the troop.

 

As @TAHAWK has stated, if there's a mixed patrol and the PL can't handle the diversity of interest so that everyone is taken care of, then change the format so that he can.  The SPL needs to be taking care of his PL, too.

 

It sounds as if this is not a troop that is as boy-led as they would think it is.

 

The nice thing about this whole mess is that with the early cross-over (which I am totally against in the first place) your son hasn't lost time to enjoy scouts.  Go shopping, take your son, and if he wants to invite his buddies, that's fine too.  He may not be the only one feeling this way.  I find boys discuss these things among themselves all the time.  I would be surprised if this conversation you are having with your son hasn't been hashed about with his friends first.

 

So, your son and five of his buddies show up at a new troop and "negotiate".  We will join if you provide a skilled PL and TG to get us going with a new patrol of just us boys.  Whadda ya think?  A good boy-led troop would jump at this in a heartbeat.  It shows your son is taking the initiative and is taking care of his boys.  Step #1 in solid leadership.  That might be a discussion he needs from you.  Just sayin'.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Stosh

[Phrogger]

Stosh and Tahawk, you make good points about mixed-age patrols. At first I thought that would be a good thing but now I feel less so. Here's the other thing about mixed-age patrols I don't like. Older boys talk about things that younger kids shouldn't hear. My son says one boy in his patrol swears a lot for example and his dad is an ASM. But I digress- that's one for the patrol discussion.

 

This Troop operates as one big group. The patrols meet once a month but that usually involves eating at Wendy's for half an hour before the Troop meeting. One boy was supposed to be leading but I saw no real "meeting" of any kind. (Last time there wasn't enough room at the big table for my son so he sat by himself. I sat across the room and watched this.) In the time he's been in the Troop (since May 2016), they have had only one patrol activity, a trip to a trampoline park, and he was out of town for a family event and could not attend. Most of the time at the Troop meetings he finds the other kids his age and only separates into the patrols for the beginning and ending ceremony. Since I have no idea how the troop is supposed to function, I didn't think anything of it. But the way you describe the patrol method they are doing something wrong.

 

I have considered joining the Troop Committee but I'm not sure it would help. (Work has made it difficult for me this year but my schedule is going to lighten up soon). Maybe it's time for a new troop.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Phrogger

[Stosh]

Stosh and Tahawk, you make good points about mixed-age patrols. At first I thought that would be a good thing but now I feel less so. Here's the other thing about mixed-age patrols I don't like. Older boys talk about things that younger kids shouldn't hear. My son says one boy in his patrol swears a lot for example and his dad is an ASM. But I digress- that's one for the patrol discussion.

 

This Troop operates as one big group. The patrols meet once a month but that usually involves eating at Wendy's for half an hour before the Troop meeting. One boy was supposed to be leading but I saw no real "meeting" of any kind. (Last time there wasn't enough room at the big table for my son so he sat by himself. I sat across the room and watched this.) In the time he's been in the Troop (since May 2016), they have had only one patrol activity, a trip to a trampoline park, and he was out of town for a family event and could not attend. Most of the time at the Troop meetings he finds the other kids his age and only separates into the patrols for the beginning and ending ceremony. Since I have no idea how the troop is supposed to function, I didn't think anything of it. But the way you describe the patrol method they are doing something wrong.

 

I have considered joining the Troop Committee but I'm not sure it would help. (Work has made it difficult for me this year but my schedule is going to lighten up soon). Maybe it's time for a new troop.

 

@Phrogger

 

You've been snookered.  This is not a Boy Scout Troop, they are not using the Patrol Method other than in name only.  Joining the committee will only agitate you and will do nothing for the son.  Start shopping.  What you described is exactly why I as ASM with no son in the troop any longer moved on to another troop.  After 13 years of banging my head against the wall,  I had had enough.

 

I would drive 40 miles round trip to be part of a different troop and it was well worth the extra gas.

[Back Pack]

Of course, if the boys were doing what they're supposed to do, like in my mixed age patrol troop, the new kids would be welcomed and learning. Don't throw out the model just because some people don't know how to implement it.

[TAHAWK]

My old troop consistently (25 years) welcomed the new kids.  The leadership bought into the notion that they were the future of the troop and needed to be encouraged and nurtured.  The older Scouts taught the younger and it was thee troop culture - what was done habitually.  Exceptions were noted by all the leadership and the adults and were addressed.  Much harder to get that going if the culture is as described in the OP.

[perdidochas]

Here we are a few months later. Recap: my son crossed over a year early and this is his 5th grade year. Although he's been in scouts since Wolf he's struggled to adjust to the changes from Cubs to Scouts.  He isn't very athletic and has trouble doing many of the outdoor activities that the troop does. I've not made him do any of the overnight camping since he doesn't want to do it, and I'm afraid of turning him off of scouts permanently. In addition, he has no idea how to set up a tent or what gear to pack or how to do any of the camping basics and I don't know who is supposed to be in charge of teaching that. He says the older kids don't treat him well, and although he socializes with a few of the kids he doesn't really like them. Recently at a Camporee he complained that none of the kids were showing him how to do things, and additionally they ran out of food and he only got one taco for dinner. He fights him every time I tell him to get ready for a meeting. I'm becoming tired of just making him go through the motions. Here's my next dilemma: I've already paid the $300 for summer camp (we had to put the deposit down months ago). Should I bite the bullet and let him quit now, or send him to camp and "hope" he has a good experience? Should I try a different troop where he doesn't know anybody? I just don't see this lasting unless he finds appeal in at least one activity, or makes some friends somehow.

This isn't a good troop, if what you are saying is accurate (and not just the warped perception that 11 year old boys sometimes have).  If he really doesn't like the other boys, find a different troop. The older boys should be teaching him how to set up a tent, and what he needs to bring on a campout. Go ahead and send him to camp.  Most of that time is spent not in his troop.  Try a different Troop after summer camp. Visit a few, and watch how the older boys and younger boys interact. If the older boys aren't helping/guiding/teaching the younger boys out, look at a different troop.  

[Stosh]

Dedicated, trained, and functional TG, Instructor, PL, are all POR's that are necessary for implementing a successful NSP.  Mixed aged patrols are hit or miss unless there is someone dedicated to TG, Instructors and experienced/dedicated PL's.  The NSP doesn't need these resources WITHIN the patrol to be successful,  An assigned TG will give his full attention to the NSP because he is NOT part of another patrol.  The Instructors can be an older patrol member, but focuses his instruction temporarily on each activity for the new guys.  A very experienced PL in the NSP will make a world of difference if he is focused on them rather than filling a hole waiting for the older patrols to invite him someplace else for an activity. 

 

The #1 reason NSP's are not functional and successful is because it takes older boys, focused and functionally serving their POR to make it happen.

 

It can work, but most units rely on mixed patrols and somehow over the course of time, the new guys somehow through osmosis pick up what's necessary to be successful or drop out waiting for some future opportunity.  At that age, day after tomorrow is far off in the future.  They are boys that are focused on scouting NOW.  Be Prepared to address it timely.