being content.... or just being lazy....

[Beavah]

 

but then, leaving the meeting (which was very much a pack planning meeting)

he says to me "that was a waste of time"..."the adults did everything!" 

Which prompted a conversation about that whole thing, about why he might think that is and what the adults "should do"... basically he really does understand and in a way want to lead... or at least have the scouts doing it if not him....  (To confirm @@Stosh's earlier point)

 

And so what I am observing here is that the scouts, both young and I can only assume the old too, WANT to lead, but CAN'T when being basically smothered by the adults!

 

 

Yah, I expect what the lads want is just not to be bored, eh?   Nuthin' worse to a boy than to be made to sit still for an hour or more while adults do things.   Doesn't necessarily mean they want to lead.  Does mean that they want to do something.

 

That's what I think @@Eagledad was talkin' about.  Yeh can be very adult-led, but with the boys developing as live-action helpers.   That's not boring, eh?  Yeh know you're the guy to get the flag, yeh know yeh have to wear full uniform, that sort of thing.  There can be lots of spirit in bein' a follower under adult leadership.  Look at any sports team.

 

If yeh leave the lads bored until they get older, though, then pretty much yeh set da expectation for do-nothing older boys.  Like as not that's when yeh start to see some hazing and other behavioral issues too.

 

Beavah

[Stosh]

I guess I don't want my boys to develop as live-action helpers. I want them to be leaders. 

 

I stopped by a camp this past week at summer camp because the camp gateway had the flags backwards.  I visited with the adult leaders of the camp about it.  The SM wasn't able to come to the camp until later in the week.  One of the leaders called over one the the boys who had left the trailer door opened and started hassling him.  Then he called over the SPL and asked "How many?" and the SPL said, "25".  This meant that the boy was to do 25 push ups before closing the trailer door.  I gently reminded him this was not an acceptable BSA policy practice, and the leader said, their SM was former military and they were merely maintaining the troops "tradition".  They started counting as the boy did his push ups and I counted random numbers until no one knew the count and the boy just went over and closed the door to the trailer.  My welcome was wore out so I moved on. 

 

It was good to see that the SPL was maintaining a great boy-led program in that troop.  It's a great tradition to have.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

I think this is characteristic of the generation.  Not to criticize, just an observation.  They have been "spoon fed" everything, at home, at school, and yes, even at Scouts.  It's not that they don't WANT to take initiative, they don't know how, because they've never been expected to.  I saw it 10 years ago when I was unit scouting, and I think it's even worse now.  They wait for direction.  When given direction, they willingly react, do just what was suggested, nothing more, nothing less.  They think if it's not suggested, it's not up to them to think of it.  IT frustrates me at work, because my management style is to tell them what the end point needs to look like, then get out of the way and let them figure out all the intermediate steps.  They don't know how to do it without step-by-step direction.  

 

Yes, some are spoon fed and do not want to take initiative. BUT, there are those who when they do take initiative are swatted down by adults who take over. Yes, they may need some guidance on thinking outside of the box, i.e. "Why can't you do what you suggested?" and "How can you adapt that game to the activity?" But I've found it's the adults who cause the problems. As BLW2 posted :

"1) he knows the adults are planning and driving things, so why bother?"

[blw2]

blw2, the behavior of older scouts start from what they know. The instinct is there, but knowledge is only what they observed in their past. Desire without knowledge is like running fast in the dark.  

 

The behaviors I wrote in my above post were taught to me by a good friend who is a professor in Child Psychology and a Scoutmaster.  Over time I observed his teaching many hundreds of times.  Older scouts behave exactly as the role models they watched the three or so years before puberty.

 

I've said many times that the quality of a troop should be measured by the older scouts. What is observed in the older scouts is what will be observed from the scouts following them. If that is not desired, change it.

 

We have so much power as troop leaders to build men of character and citizens of integrity if we only use that power correctly. 

 

Barry

yeah, I guess I wasn't as clear as i could have been.  We are and were on the same page.... well except the bit about them being safe in an adult program....safe to do what they want anyway.

I actually meant that I agreed with your points, but the rest of the story was that these natural tendencies are squashed by the adults.

[Eagledad]

Our youth live in a challenging culture. Their bodies and minds turn into adults by the age 14, but our society doesn't allow them to behave any differently than 12. Even our laws restrict our young adults from behaving like young to 18 for voting and 21 for drinking. The restrictions are to protect the society from immature adults making important decisions that can have direct effects on other people and communities. But in the same manner, it also builds a belief that 15, 16, 17 year old teens are still children, not adults. the problem feeds on itself because as the community treats young adults as children, they don't mature as adults and take that learning experience into their parenting. The average maturity for tens is forced lower with each generation. 

 

I believe this is where our generation of helicopter adults have come from. they were treated like children in their later teen years, they don't understand any differently for their own teens.

 

The scouting is an intimidating program for today's parents because it pushes their comfort out of bounds for the safety of their children. They don't understand how making choices develops maturity, at least for youth of the scouting age. They question the age of a youth making choices that effect the lives of other people. Making those kinds of decision is for adults, not children; that's the way they were taught. Scouting is an in-your-face program that is unbelievable for most parents.

 

Just like the "ages and stages" examples that scouting and my Child Psychologist friend talk about, most parents find it hard to believe. Parent want more proof and would rather not risk their sons getting hurt than to try this idea of scouts learning from their mistakes. Parents believe they are protecting their children from the pain of wrong choices, but I learned they are also protecting themselves of the pain of watching their children struggle. I learned this, and felt it actually, as I saw the strain of parents letting their sons go on their first weekend campout, or their first week long summer camp. 

 

Our troop developed ways over the years to prepare the parents for summer camp and we had a lot less homesick scouts. It's the parents that make a scout miss home, not the scout so much. 

 

I got my first job when I was 12. Saved enough money to by my first car when I got my license at 16. My kids are still amazed that I payed my way through college. But they live in a different world. Just as I lived in a different world from my parents who were scouts during WWII. 

 

I was a driven boy run patrol method idealist as a Scoutmaster, As a result of our boy run program, our popularity grew through the council. Who would have thought that a program that was normal for most scouts in the 70s would be considered extreme in the 90s. But when I retired as the SM and took on responsibilities at the District and Council level, I became humbled that I couldn't change all the other troops into my level of boy run of our troop because the adults (parents) struggled with my vision. So I learned how to teach the vision of changing boys into citizens of character and leaders of integrity. But it is a tough road. Parent of this generation aren't evil or wrong minded, they are just being the best parents they can from the knowledge and experiences given to them from their own parents. They are being responsible, caring, loving parents who only want the best for their children. 

 

Who is to say that Eagledad, Beaver, or Eagle94 really know what they are talking about. Scouting to most parents is camping, not character building. So what is the big deal if the Scoutmaster directs scouts in their everyday activities? Is it so hard to understand that parents look at scouting as more of an after school program? Hey, as I said, how many of you really believe in the ages and stages examples. Your skeptical and really you are not sure how to apply ages and stages even if it might be true. Well it's twice as hard for those parents who don't understand anything about the scouting program.

 

Troops that are the most boy run are the ones that "believe" in the heart of the program. They understand how the Oath and Law make a difference in a scouts growth. I found that most Scoutmasters of the hard core boy run patrol method troops have studied Badon Powell, Bill Hillcourt and other founders. They have some understanding of GreenBar Bill Patrol Method and Badon Powell Scouts. They researched the founders  to understand better how scouting works in a boys life. Most want to shuck past the husk of new scouts, BORs, rank requirements, and advancement to find the core of developing growth of character and integrity.

 

These adults don't use boy run and patrol method because the book says so, they use it because it is the most efficient means to an end. They get it. They can define how almost every part of the troop program contributes growth in a boys' character, fitness and community activeness. And honestly boy run is a lot harder because it requires guiding each scout individually instead of by group. 

 

Boy run scout leaders are rare and as a result they are under constant assault of their the program and must constantly defend the Vision, Aims, and Methods. It wears on them, but they stick with it because they have the passion to seek a better future for their scouts.

 

If you want what a boy run program gives to scouts, then you must be passionate and proactive because the culture has become a heavy force against youth programs that allow their youth participants the freedom to make mistakes from their personal choices. I believe that true boy run leaders today need to study harder and learn how the pieces and parts of the scout program contribute to the growth of making moral decisions based from the Oath and Law because there are fewer scout leaders who even know. I believe a true boy run adult leader today has to be courageous because they  have to learn how to get past their own personal fears that block a boy run program from working. They have to believe in the product enough to let failure become positive lesson for wisdom and change. Boy run adults have to get past their egos so that they are willingly humble in front of the scouts because sometimes the scouts are right and the adults are wrong. 

 

Real boy run scouting is hard today. Even harder than 20 years ago when I was a SM. It takes a special person to support and develop a boy run program. The rewards are beyond description, but the first step requires a faith that most adults aren't willing to give. For most adults, the question is how much are they willing to compromise to make life easier for them as an adult leader in a troop program?

 

All I can say is there are a few of us that will support every effort you all make toward your program. So of us will be judgemental, some of us will empathize. But we are here and hopefully make your adventure in scouting a little easier. You are heros to me because you are contributing into making my son into more of a man than without you. That is why I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[blw2]

that's a very nice post Barry.  Lot of good thoughts in there.....

 

this one is really a lessor point in it all I think, BUT it specifically opened my eyes to something

....... Scouting to most parents is camping, not character building. So what is the big deal if the Scoutmaster directs scouts in their everyday activities? .....

 

I haven't thought about things in quite that way before I guess but this really could be a big factor in it all.....

BUT

there is a huge twist.

What i am seeing this "problem" from isn't from the generic parent.  It is instead coming from these trained and dedicated scouters.  The active core of the group, the SM, ASM's, and CM... most of which are beaded.

Almost without fail, they will echo agreement to almost anything mentioned about character, boy lead, and so on..... but in practice they seem to be missing a huge piece of the puzzle.

 

I've gotta say that the generic parent of our troop really seems to not notice one way or the other.  They drop off before, and pick-up after.

Is that because they know the parent scouters have got it?  They know that these trusted parents are running the show.  

and maybe that's why these scouters won't let go.....

Maybe that's it ?!?

[Eagledad]

 

there is a huge twist.

What i am seeing this "problem" from isn't from the generic parent.  It is instead coming from these trained and dedicated scouters.  The active core of the group, the SM, ASM's, and CM... most of which are beaded.

Almost without fail, they will echo agreement to almost anything mentioned about character, boy lead, and so on..... but in practice they seem to be missing a huge piece of the puzzle.

You provoked a few thoughts:

 

*I was given the go-ahead by Council to develop "my" vision of a boy run NYLT (JLTC at the time). I had full support by the council, but I remember one SM who gave me his full support and cooperation, changed his mind when he saw that the participants were given their own campsite without staff or adults to monitor their behavior. As much as we talked about the goal of giving scouts the freedom to create their own patrols and course agenda, he just couldn't find the trust to let scouts camp by themselves in a course environment at the local Scout camp. The youngest participant was 14, and he still couldn't see them as adults. 

 

*More than 75% of today's troop volunteers never had a Boy Scouting experience. And most of them have never camped.

 

* I used to poll scout leaders at leadership training courses and I found that less than 10% of trained ASMs had read more than 10% of the Scoutmaster Handbook. Less than 25% of trained Scoutmasters had read 25% of the Scoutmaster Handbook, and less than 10% of SMs had read the whole handbook.

 

It's one thing to talk about developing character, knowing how is something different.

 

The BSA has some challenges for getting parents up to speed as developers of patrol method programs. 

 

Barry

[Beavah]

Yah, @@blw2, I reckon it's just hard to let go, eh?  That's why I like to encourage troops to use their young men/alumni as ASMs, and to seek out others.  Yeh need some 20-somethings (what other nations call "Rovers") around who aren't as fearful or protective as parents.

 

An exercise I sometimes do with parents is to have 'em list out all the things they want their son to be and be able to do at age 18 when they go off to college or a job.  Then describe where their son is at right now.  Then yeh just draw a staircase that describes how to get there.  If yeh want a lad to be independent at 18, he better be given full independence at 17 while you're still around as "backup".  That means he should have a lot of independence at 16, eh?  And so on.  In the grand scheme of things, goin' off for weekends or a week of camp at age 11 is necessary as a step on the road to where they want their boy at age 18.

 

Yeh can do the same thing with scouters too, eh?  Have 'em describe what they want an Eagle at age 18 to be, and then have 'em step backwards year by year.  What does that mean about a Life Scout?  What experiences must a Star Scout then have?  All the way back to what's important for a Tenderfoot boy in terms of tryin' out being self-directed and gettin' confidence from being able to do.

 

Where we sometimes see advancement problems is when a lad gets near Eagle and the adults realize he's not what their vision of an Eagle is.  It can create some grief, eh?  I like those adults, though, because they have a vision at least.  Now they just need to learn that to get there they have to start earlier, and often let go more.   What's harder is when yeh have adults who think they're bein' youth-run or followin' Patrol Method or teachin' values, but they don't have a vision for what that means in a boy's life and growth.  It's harder to help them.

 

Beavah

[winspy]

Idk but I am a scout myself. In my troop, I feel really beaten up today. I came to speak out. My troop did like 100 or more push ups. It was bad.... If u accidentally moved while in “attention” we dropped and did ten. But that wasnt the bad part. The SPL waited until all our butts were off the floor before continuing. We did wall sits for 3 minutes. Stayed in attention for 1 minute. Oh and for the wall sit, if anyone didn’t have 90 degree angles or sat down, we all had an extra 30 secs. At the end, my hand are literally pierced from doing push-ups on the hard rough concrete floor. What should I do? I want to continue but I don’t want to keep going through this every week... ( HELP )

[RememberSchiff]

@winspy welcome to scouter.com. 

[HelpfulTracks]

I would find a new troop. You can attempt to change this one, but with the time it would take you might well hate Scouting before it’s done.

good luck